45-70 velocity. how much is needed?

[Axis II]

I am working up a load of 300gr Hornady JHP with IMR 4198 for whitetail hunting. From what I've read certain bullets need a certain velocity to expand so I'm wondering just how hot these or 325gr leverevolution/ftx bullets need to be pushed? should I aim for factory velocity with me reloads? I started tonight with MARLIN min-medium and from min-medium I got 1'' 3 shot groups. I'm sure I could get them tighter but that rifles a little odd to shoot off bags with a 7x scope. How about going faster than factory for a little flatter shooting? say factory is 1700 and book says I can go to 2k? just throwing out numbers there cause I don't have my book close.

 

[Grumulkin]

You are making it too complicated. Use the load that gives you the best accuracy. The velocity will be fine. Really.

 

[ms6852]

What kind of rifle are you hunting with? With the 45/70 you have to stick to the parameters for the type of rifle. Because if you use lever action loads on a trapdoor rifle you exceed the limits, if you use Ruger #1 loads on a lever action than you exceed limits. But to answer your questions the bullet does not need the high velocity most people think for expansion. This is a slow moving bullet that has been very successful in hunting with low velocities.

 

[brewer12345]

And to add to previous comments, a cast bullet would be a lot cheaper and easily kill white tails even at modest velocities.

 

[MEHavey]

And to add to previous comments, a cast bullet would be a lot cheaper and easily kill white tails even at modest velocities.

^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^

And.....
Don't get yourself beat up for little added advantge.
A 405gr Lyman 457193 (the classic 45-70 bullet) doing a measly BP-load/1,250 fps from the muzzle will:

- Go completely through a deer stem-to-stern and/or smash most anything in its way.
- Is literally point blank on a 5" heart-sized object out to 135 yard.

Point...
Shoot.
Original/BP/"Cowboy"45-70 ballistics are waaaaaaaaay underated.

 

[redbullitt]

I think the FTX bullet likes a little more speed than my shoulder does... Have put a few into soaked news print at 1500 FPS and they did not open up well. Barnes makes a couple nice ones that will expand at manageable velocities. The copper TTSX for 458 socom will do a great job at 1500 FPS and a bit slower, which also will be easier on your shoulder.

A 405 WFN style cast at 1200 to 1500 will do a great job as well without being too rough on the shooter. 1200 FPS will probably go straight through a couple deer, so no issues there lol. Find the loading that shoots well. Those type of bullets do not really need much speed to work well.

Be mindful of what your gun can handle btw. Old trap door rifles are entirely different than a ruger or guide gun.

 

[BigBore44]

He’s shooting a Marlin 1895. Not a trapdoor. That’s just the level of load he used.

Ohio, just shoot for accuracy. You’re going to find those FTX bullets are nasty. I don’t even shoot them anymore. You put one into the shoulder/femur joint and you can forget even trying to salvage any of the meat. I switched to Hornady 350gr RN over (I believe) 51gr H-4198. It’s a thumper. No need to worry about needing a broadside shot. It will find the heart or lungs from just about any angle.

When you shoot your first deer with the bullet you’re using, you’re most likely going to heart the “crack” of the bullet smacking the deer. It actually gives a report.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I shoot a 405gr Cast Bullet at ~1400 fps and that will not only take deer but bear too. My shoulder appreciates that load lol.

If you write Hornady they will give you the recommended velocities for both bullets but like said above, do your part and I'm sure the bullet will do it's job too. You worry too much my friend, this is supposed to be fun!

 

[LoonWulf]

Im launching those 300 hornady and noslers at 1850-1900 from my Socom, and they obliterate water jugs, and pulp piggies.
Havent shot the 325s yet, but 405s jsps at 1600fps droped a couple 600lb cows no problem. I dont see you having issues with the 325s and deer at that velocity or higher.

 

[Axis II]

What kind of rifle are you hunting with? With the 45/70 you have to stick to the parameters for the type of rifle. Because if you use lever action loads on a trapdoor rifle you exceed the limits, if you use Ruger #1 loads on a lever action than you exceed limits. But to answer your questions the bullet does not need the high velocity most people think for expansion. This is a slow moving bullet that has been very successful in hunting with low velocities.

marlin 1895 and cva stalker single shot. sorry, i should have said that in the OP.

 

[Axis II]

He’s shooting a Marlin 1895. Not a trapdoor. That’s just the level of load he used.

Ohio, just shoot for accuracy. You’re going to find those FTX bullets are nasty. I don’t even shoot them anymore. You put one into the shoulder/femur joint and you can forget even trying to salvage any of the meat. I switched to Hornady 350gr RN over (I believe) 51gr H-4198. It’s a thumper. No need to worry about needing a broadside shot. It will find the heart or lungs from just about any angle.

When you shoot your first deer with the bullet you’re using, you’re most likely going to heart the “crack” of the bullet smacking the deer. It actually gives a report.

Thanks, I shot a medium size doe a few years back with the 325gr ftx leverevolution factory round and she turned when the trigger broke quartering towards me and it went in the side and out the rear leg. Made a mess to field dress but i hadn't seen anything all year and was already committed. She dropped right where she stood. We have some very large bucks 200lbs field dressed around here so i like to hit them with thor's hammer to make suffering less likely. I figured tone it down to the 300gr. I try and purchase my reloading stuff from a local store as the prices are good and they are always willing to help or find stuff for you. they mostly carry 300jhp and a few others. i wont do cast right now cause i don't have the room and don't trust my abilities just yet.

 

[Axis II]

I shoot a 405gr Cast Bullet at ~1400 fps and that will not only take deer but bear too. My shoulder appreciates that load lol.

If you write Hornady they will give you the recommended velocities for both bullets but like said above, do your part and I'm sure the bullet will do it's job too. You worry too much my friend, this is supposed to be fun!

LOL. im not really worried i just have horrible luck. I shot a really nice 7pt last year with a muzzleloader, 2 pellets, 250gr shockwave at under 100yards and the bullet never exited and not a stich of blood. If i didn't have snow to follow hoof prints i would have never found him. After that i want to make sure what im using will work properly. Im at high trap door loads and the levergun seems to hit a little harder than the cva as its lighter and just making sure the bullet will work if i have to stop from recoil.

 

[BigBore44]

Thanks, I shot a medium size doe a few years back with the 325gr ftx leverevolution factory round and she turned when the trigger broke quartering towards me and it went in the side and out the rear leg. Made a mess to field dress but i hadn't seen anything all year and was already committed. She dropped right where she stood. We have some very large bucks 200lbs field dressed around here so i like to hit them with thor's hammer to make suffering less likely. I figured tone it down to the 300gr. I try and purchase my reloading stuff from a local store as the prices are good and they are always willing to help or find stuff for you. they mostly carry 300jhp and a few others. i wont do cast right now cause i don't have the room and don't trust my abilities just yet.

“Thor’s hammer” is a relative term. But there’s no reason your combination won’t produce the desired results you seek. If your bullet doesn’t perform the way you want, but you want to stay at the 300gr weight, I’d suggest giving Sierra 300gr a try. I use the same bullet, albeit it in .429, exclusively in my 444. It’s very accurate (sub MOA) and makes really big holes. The expansion is quite impressive.

 

[brewer12345]

Thanks, I shot a medium size doe a few years back with the 325gr ftx leverevolution factory round and she turned when the trigger broke quartering towards me and it went in the side and out the rear leg. Made a mess to field dress but i hadn't seen anything all year and was already committed. She dropped right where she stood. We have some very large bucks 200lbs field dressed around here so i like to hit them with thor's hammer to make suffering less likely. I figured tone it down to the 300gr. I try and purchase my reloading stuff from a local store as the prices are good and they are always willing to help or find stuff for you. they mostly carry 300jhp and a few others. i wont do cast right now cause i don't have the room and don't trust my abilities just yet.

I meant you can buy cast bullets quite cheaply. No need to cast your own.

 

[GooseGestapo]

I've found that 46.5gr of H4198 is a sweet spot for accuracy in my two Marlin 1894. It's good for 1800-1900fps. Recoil is brisk, but manageable. Both my rifles shoot under 2moa with this load (04' GuideGun, '2016 Remlin I got at Walmart on closeout for $267 after $50 Marlin rebate.
Both wear scopes...

Supposedly Hornady states on their website this bullet requires an impact speed of 1,600fps to expand. Likely they state minimum muzzle velocity for acceptable performance. I only bought one box and used it up tinkering with load. So no game experience.
However, in 2011 I used a 250gr .452 FTX from my m/l to shoot a doe. 1,400fps m/v gave NO EXPANSION at ~100yds.
My .45/70 hunting load is a RCBS 300gr FNGC (322gr) over 29.5gr of #2400 for 1,650fps from GuideGun. It flattens whitetail deer with alacrity. Also 2moa accurate.

 

[someguy2800]

I left for deer camp tonight and decided last minute to throw in my guide gun, so I may get a chance to see how that works with a 350 grain hard cast over 17 grains of trail boss for 1250 fps. Pretty much like a 45 colt rifle. This is my plinking load and shoots 3-4" at 100 with a peep sight. I don't mind heavy recoil but the gun just shoots so nice with this load I never bothered to try loading up a warm load.

I'll let my 444 do the kicking. That gets a 320 grain LFN gas check over 45gr RL7 at 2100 fps

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I would guess that 350 gr hardcast bullet at 1250 FPS would go through the biggest whitetail on the planet from end to end when shot at an open sight range.

 

[JeffG]

A cast 300gr going 1600 (458 WM) took this bison, through the lungs, one shot. I was glad there was nothing behind him; went through him like paper.

 

[BigBore44]

A cast 300gr going 1600 (458 WM) took this bison, through the lungs, one shot. I was glad there was nothing behind him; went through him like paper.
View attachment 767341

There’s some convincing anecdotal evidence. Out of curiosity, how far did the buff run?

 

[gojones]

I have a Marlin 1895 45-70 since the mid 70's. I shoot the Remington 300 grain JHP at approximately 1,850 using IMR 4198. I recently put a limbsaver on the stock to help with recoil. I used to shoot at approximately 2,000 fps but recoil was a killer as I got older. Either is a knock down flat load for deer. A total meat and bone destroyer unless shot is placed in lung cavity.

 

[gojones]

I do like the idea of decreasing the velocity to around 1,600 using the 300 grain JHP. Should expand okay at that speed.

 

[JeffG]

There’s some convincing anecdotal evidence. Out of curiosity, how far did the buff run?

Right around 100 yards...through both lungs, missed the heart and the shoulders.

 

[JeffG]

I have a Marlin 1895 45-70 since the mid 70's. I shoot the Remington 300 grain JHP at approximately 1,850 using IMR 4198. I recently put a limbsaver on the stock to help with recoil. I used to shoot at approximately 2,000 fps but recoil was a killer as I got older. Either is a knock down flat load for deer. A total meat and bone destroyer unless shot is placed in lung cavity.

That's why I use cast, you can eat up to the bullet hole. Avoiding major bones, of course.

 

[RemoW]

aa 5744 powder and 300 grainer at any where between 1600 - 1900 fps will handle any whitetail no matter how big. You can crank the 300 up to a faster speed but as some other poster's denoted, it is go right on through.

I love the 45/70 round.

Dan...

 

[dh1633pm]

This thread needs a fork because its about done. That's the reason I like this site, there are lots of good experienced shooters giving good advice. I use same bullets for hunting White Tails. I get them going at about 1700. Good compromise between recoil and power. Shot a dear with one from the front in the neck. Found the copper in the neck vertebra, and the lead at the tail. Deer dropped like its legs were removed.