one more question on this subject. leverevolution rounds are 2050 muzzle velocity and my trap door data reloads are supposed to be 2000fps according to hodgdon for my bullet and powder combo so why do my reloads shoot 6-7'' lower? could it be the data is off?
45-70 velocity. how much is needed?
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Something that occurred to me in loading downloaded "plinking" ammo in my .45/70 with cast bullets.
I was looking for a load that produced significantly less recoil than standard loads. I don't remember the velocity numbers and all that, but it occurred to me that the light loads I was shooting, were at approx. the same velocity as a .44 magnum handgun, while shooting a much heavier bullet. Many thousands of whitetail deer have been cleanly taken with a .44 magnum handgun. So I surmise that these very light plinking loads in .45/70 would be more than adequate for whitetail deer.
In America, bigger is always better. Faster is always better. All the people I know that hunt whitetail deer with a .45/70 use loads that would stop a rhino. While there is nothing wrong with this, IMO, there is no real reason to do this unless you shoot at much longer ranges than are available to me. I have never shot a whitetail deer over maybe 30 yards away.
I was looking for a load that produced significantly less recoil than standard loads. I don't remember the velocity numbers and all that, but it occurred to me that the light loads I was shooting, were at approx. the same velocity as a .44 magnum handgun, while shooting a much heavier bullet. Many thousands of whitetail deer have been cleanly taken with a .44 magnum handgun. So I surmise that these very light plinking loads in .45/70 would be more than adequate for whitetail deer.
In America, bigger is always better. Faster is always better. All the people I know that hunt whitetail deer with a .45/70 use loads that would stop a rhino. While there is nothing wrong with this, IMO, there is no real reason to do this unless you shoot at much longer ranges than are available to me. I have never shot a whitetail deer over maybe 30 yards away.
Problem is.... that truly "light" loads (bullet and powder) don't particularly play well in that cavernous 45-70 sandbox -- even with the fastest of powders -- unless you do something like found in post #6 of this string
https://thefiringline.com/forums//showthread.php?t=560894
https://thefiringline.com/forums//showthread.php?t=560894
Well, I wasn't using a light bullet. I was using 405s with Unique powder.
Again, I was just trying to come up with something so I could shoot the .45/70 a lot more and enjoy doing it. I wasn't loading these for hunting, although as I said, it occurred to me that I COULD use them for whitetail deer hunting and not feel that I was under gunned.
This all stemmed from listening to my friends who were playing around with absolute max loads and specialty bullets; which caused me to comment to them that we are talking about hunting whitetail deer and not cape buffalo. In other words, at some point I felt that this was becoming absurd. Not that what they were doing wouldn't work, and not that it wasn't fun, but trying to squeeze the last 10 fps out of a load or trying bullets that cost a buck a piece seemed to me to be taking things a little bit too far for whitetail deer.
Again, I was just trying to come up with something so I could shoot the .45/70 a lot more and enjoy doing it. I wasn't loading these for hunting, although as I said, it occurred to me that I COULD use them for whitetail deer hunting and not feel that I was under gunned.
This all stemmed from listening to my friends who were playing around with absolute max loads and specialty bullets; which caused me to comment to them that we are talking about hunting whitetail deer and not cape buffalo. In other words, at some point I felt that this was becoming absurd. Not that what they were doing wouldn't work, and not that it wasn't fun, but trying to squeeze the last 10 fps out of a load or trying bullets that cost a buck a piece seemed to me to be taking things a little bit too far for whitetail deer.
Fine Figure of a Man
Member
It makes little if any difference if a 45 cal bullet expands or not on deer.
Stoking 45-70 loads up to maximum velocity just makes them unpleasant to shoot.
Any 45-70 load that is accurate and not abusive to shoot will be more than adequate for deer.
Stoking 45-70 loads up to maximum velocity just makes them unpleasant to shoot.
Any 45-70 load that is accurate and not abusive to shoot will be more than adequate for deer.
If you've decided in the 405, how fast do you want to go?
405 even at 800fps will kill most anything short of Grizzly*/Elk very, very dead East of the Mississippi
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm
postscriptum: If you are going to use really light powder charges
-- of even the fastest of fast powders -- I'd recommend the Picnic
Plate Powder Positioner (P⁴ for the Cognesenti) mentioned in
"Post #6" above.
Do we have Grizzly EoM?
405 even at 800fps will kill most anything short of Grizzly*/Elk very, very dead East of the Mississippi
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm
postscriptum: If you are going to use really light powder charges
-- of even the fastest of fast powders -- I'd recommend the Picnic
Plate Powder Positioner (P⁴ for the Cognesenti) mentioned in
"Post #6" above.
Do we have Grizzly EoM?
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gojones
Member
I have an original Springfield 1873 trapdoor used by the army in the Spanish American war that I have shot occasionally. These guns used "soft steel" compared to modern day guns. I use lead bullets at around 1,400 fps. You should not use jacketed bullets and those velocities just sound dangerous.
someguy2800
Member
What kind of trap door load gives you 2000 fps? Are you sure your not looking at the lever action loads?
That's what I get for getting online with 5hrs of sleep and the stupid time change.
I was using marlin data for everything idk why I even said trap door in the OP and this last one. I started at marlin data-NOT TRAPDOOR. I had trap door on the mind cause I was talking with a buddy who is all about the old school stuff telling me load some trap door loads and be done cause they killed buffalo with them. with trying to deer hunt, squirrel hunt, home chores, work, and trying to get loads for this, 44mag and a muzzleloader done before the 26th I slipped up from mine and his conversation.
Here is what I did-medium-low trap door loads-6rds cause I've never shot an 1895 before and my cva has a semi heavy barrel on it do recoil isn't bad. I then went medium=-moderately high marlin data 300gr HP and fired a few LE rounds through it.
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Varminterror
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I've been hunting the .45-70 for over 20yrs, it's a bit of a guilty pleasure for me, which goes against all of my typical preferences. I've loaded everything from 200grn bullets up to 500's, from plinking pressures up to irresponsibly high pressures in 1895's and No.1's. I'm about 8-9yrs into the 325grn FTX bullet in the 45-70.
The Hornady Leverevolution factory loads with the 325grn FTX run 1795 average in our 3 Guide Guns (2 + 1 SBL, same rifle, different stock). In 2011, I threw one 250yrds into the buck pictured below, and recovered the bullet, also pictured, under the hide on the far side. Gutted, skinned, and with his head cut off at the shoulders, he was over 190lbs hanging weight at my processor, weighing the head and adding it to their hanging weight, the processor told me he would have gone 315-325 on the hoof. The unfortunate circumstance of 1795fps and a low BC bullet is the resulting 30" of hold over I had to manage, but I stuck it right through his heart, shredding the near lung into jello, same for the heart, and cutting his far lung in half. Not a small whitetail, not a short shot for the 45-70, not a high velocity, and it didn't hit anything hard on the way through.
The FTX bullet really wants to open, so if you're hitting deer up close with it, it's going to shed its tip and lose a lot of weight, but I've always gotten pass throughs on deer under 150yrds with them, even at "Marlin Only" velocities - but the bullet isn't pretty, and I don't hit the shoulder with them. I'm positive it'll crush the shoulder and anchor the deer even if I punch the nearside shoulder, but I do not trust the bullet to hold together well enough to kill the deer quickly if I try to run it through a big deer's shoulder joint first.
The extra speed does make a bit of a difference. I've gotten that FTX up over 2100fps in the Guide Gun's short barrel, up from 1795 factory level. It saves me ~10" of drop at 250yrds, which for me, means my "manageable range" improves from a max of 300yrds, out to 380yrds, with a comfortable range improving from 250 where things get a little hairy, out to 300yrds. Adding 50-80yrds doesn't seem like a lot, especially considering how much harder the rifle recoils, but when we're talking about 250 vs. 300yrds, it's worth it on some of my properties where a little longer shot might be common.
I'm not a huge fan of the 325FTX, since it IS so lightly constructed, but I do stick with it because it does shoot so well in my rifles. I've replaced the 3-9x on top which was used to shoot the group below, which resolved some of my vertical dispersion, but getting that bullet to shoot slightly Sub to 1MOA isn't a chore, anywhere along the spectrum of velocities I've described.
The Hammer of Thor is an awesome force, and it gets thrown around a lot about heavy bullet rifles, but there's a distinct reality - when you're playing whitetail tag with a 45-70, your legs don't get tired, which I can't say is nearly as reliable even with a 7RM or 30-06. Would a .45-70 be my ONLY deer rifle? Nope. Do I take it out almost every year? Yup.
The Hornady Leverevolution factory loads with the 325grn FTX run 1795 average in our 3 Guide Guns (2 + 1 SBL, same rifle, different stock). In 2011, I threw one 250yrds into the buck pictured below, and recovered the bullet, also pictured, under the hide on the far side. Gutted, skinned, and with his head cut off at the shoulders, he was over 190lbs hanging weight at my processor, weighing the head and adding it to their hanging weight, the processor told me he would have gone 315-325 on the hoof. The unfortunate circumstance of 1795fps and a low BC bullet is the resulting 30" of hold over I had to manage, but I stuck it right through his heart, shredding the near lung into jello, same for the heart, and cutting his far lung in half. Not a small whitetail, not a short shot for the 45-70, not a high velocity, and it didn't hit anything hard on the way through.
The FTX bullet really wants to open, so if you're hitting deer up close with it, it's going to shed its tip and lose a lot of weight, but I've always gotten pass throughs on deer under 150yrds with them, even at "Marlin Only" velocities - but the bullet isn't pretty, and I don't hit the shoulder with them. I'm positive it'll crush the shoulder and anchor the deer even if I punch the nearside shoulder, but I do not trust the bullet to hold together well enough to kill the deer quickly if I try to run it through a big deer's shoulder joint first.
The extra speed does make a bit of a difference. I've gotten that FTX up over 2100fps in the Guide Gun's short barrel, up from 1795 factory level. It saves me ~10" of drop at 250yrds, which for me, means my "manageable range" improves from a max of 300yrds, out to 380yrds, with a comfortable range improving from 250 where things get a little hairy, out to 300yrds. Adding 50-80yrds doesn't seem like a lot, especially considering how much harder the rifle recoils, but when we're talking about 250 vs. 300yrds, it's worth it on some of my properties where a little longer shot might be common.
I'm not a huge fan of the 325FTX, since it IS so lightly constructed, but I do stick with it because it does shoot so well in my rifles. I've replaced the 3-9x on top which was used to shoot the group below, which resolved some of my vertical dispersion, but getting that bullet to shoot slightly Sub to 1MOA isn't a chore, anywhere along the spectrum of velocities I've described.
The Hammer of Thor is an awesome force, and it gets thrown around a lot about heavy bullet rifles, but there's a distinct reality - when you're playing whitetail tag with a 45-70, your legs don't get tired, which I can't say is nearly as reliable even with a 7RM or 30-06. Would a .45-70 be my ONLY deer rifle? Nope. Do I take it out almost every year? Yup.
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