45-70 Woes

[Upriver]

So,

I had one of those special range days today...the kind where you can't hit anything. I'm playing around with loads for 45-70, but to make things interesting, I decided to remount a scope on the same day. I shot a few Remington factory 405 jsp's to get things on paper, and then things kind of went downhill. I'm shooting a NEF handi-rifle (22").

Anyway here's what I tried:

50 grains IMR 4895
51 grains IMR 4895

20 grains 2400
24 grains 2400

The best grouper was 20 grains of 2400. 51 grains of 4895 looked pretty promising, but went from being low @ 50 to 10 inches high at 100.

Anyway, top it off with vertical stringing, and, uh, well, fortunately I ran out of reloads. This same firearm has been capable of cloverleafs at 100yds with the factory Remingtons, so it's user error, somewhere.

Thoughts?

All I've got to work with in the powder department at the moment is 2400, Unique, IMR 4895, and RE15.

Regards,

U

 

[Jim Watson]

What bullet?

 

[Upriver]

Sorry,

Bulk 405 gr Remington JSP's.

 

[rcmodel]

but went from being low @ 50 to 10 inches high at 100.

That right there indicates a shooting or scope problem, not a reload problem.

It is impossible for the bullet to gain altitude.

Ten inches high at 100 yards would indicate a 185 yard zero with the 405 grain 45-70. That in turn would have to put the bullet 7" high at 50 yards.

Could be you are letting the heavy recoiling load move the gun enough to cause the "low" at 50 and "high" at 100.

Either that or your scope is moving.

It is inexplicable due to the trajectory of the bullet.

rcmodel

 

[Upriver]

Yep,

That was one of my thoughts as well. I need to run the scope with a known load to test it again. Just a frustrating day I guess. Probably should have quit while I was ahead.

Regards,

U

 

[moooose102]

me to. either the mounting is wrong-loose-incorrectly installed. or the scope is bad. been there, done that. had to take a scope off from a different gun to find out it was the scope.

 

[Upriver]

So...

I ended up rolling a few more loads, on the off chance that my accuracy problem had more to do with the nut behind the trigger. I ended up working with two loads that seemed to have fairly decent promise:

405 gr Remington JSP, 43 gr Reloder 7 @ 2.55 OAL
405 gr Remington JSP, 45 gr Reloder 7 @ 2.55 OAL

The 45 gr load burned a little cleaner, and shot a little closer to point of aim. I was still having vertical stringing problems, however, so after reading through a pile of handi-rifle threads, I ended up free-floating the barrel by relieving the fore-end, and then using rubber o-rings around the mounting stud. I also threw on a limbsaver pad since my shoulder's starting to get a little tender from playing with the 45-70 all week.

Today I ran though 20 more rounds of 45 gr Reloder 7, 10 with a solid roll-crimp, and 10 with no crimp at all. Both shot sub 1" groups at 50 yds, with the un-crimped loads pretty much making one hole. At 100 yds the groups opened up a bit (2"-3"), but I'm feeling a little bit better about this experiment.

Regards,

U

 

[rcmodel]

All's well that ends well!

Glad to hear you got things sorted out!

 

[Asherdan]

Anyone else feeling hinky about the loads being used here?

Alliant's 2004 reload guide maxes the Speer 400g at 40g of Rx7 (with a 2.7" OAL) with a 24900 cup pressure. Joe over at Real Guns has the Rem 405g w/ Rx7 at 44g and those are ~40k psi loads.

I don't know the Handi specs, so I'm wondering if it's the right platform for running what look to me like 40k+ psi loads. I'm not throwing dirt here, if I'm missing something please learn me up on it.

ALSO: From my experience with 45-70 and Rx7, I don't expect it to burn too clean. I've run 350g cast from 42 through 47g, found good accuracy/velocity but always some 'powder zombies'.

 

[rcmodel]

Speer #13 lists a 400 grain load with Re-7 as 45.0 MAX in a Trapdoor Springfield.

On the otherhand, Lyman #47 shows a 405 MAX load at 34.0 in a Trapdoor, and 44.0 in Marlin 1895 or Winchester 1886!

Guess it depends on what book you look at!

Still, they gotta be pretty warm in a Handi-Gun!

 

[Ranger J]

NEF recommends that the handi be shot at nothing hotter than a Marlin level load. Lee list a 405 gr trapdoor top load at 34 grs and a Marlin load for a 400 gr load at 35grs Re#7 tops. The top Ruger SS load is only around 40 gr RE #7. Yep, too hot, please back off before you get hurt. 20 gr 2400 will make a pleasant to shoot trapdoor load or 25 gr for a Marlin load. Either of these will be handled fine by your handi. No wonder your shoulder is complaining.

RJ

 

[Upriver]

Well,

As rcmodel brought up, the books are all over the place on Rx7. Speer 13 lists 45 gr of Rx7 with a 400 gr JSP as a starting load for the Marlin levers, and 49 gr as a max. I'm not getting any pressure signs other than recoil. However, I'm also looking at the Alliant 2004 data, and there is, indeed a good bit of discrepancy between the two.

Alliant's online "guide" for 400 gr 45-70 currently only lists loads using Rx10.

As far as cleanliness, Rx7 is leaving a heck of a lot less unburned material in the barrel than I was getting with either 2400 or IMR 4895, although. I don't know what Remington puts in their factory loads, but you can't even see through the barrel after touching off one of those.

I certainly appreciate the concern and input.

Regards,

U

 

[Asherdan]

Remember, Rx7 was redone, from the red granules to the current greenish caste of the powder. I've found that the new version is 'hotter' in that similiar velocity is reached several grains lower in charge. Be carefule of Rx7 data prior to (I believe, but check on this) 2002. Lyman 48th, for example, has the 45-70 Rx7 loads worked up with the 'old' Rx7. Be careful to match the Rx7 formulation you have to the proper data.

As far as pressure signs, you aren't going to see them at the 28k or 40k level. Once you see 'em it's almost to darn close to kaboom in a Handi or a lever.

Good Shooting!

 

[rcmodel]

As far as pressure signs, you aren't going to see them at the 28k or 40k level.

+ 1000!

If you see any pressure signs with a 45-70 levergun pressure level load, it will be part of your gun sticking out of your head!

 

[Upriver]

Thanks for the heads up, I would have been unaware of the change in Rx7. I'll pull the rest of these and give something else a shot.

Regards,

U

 

[Cypress]

Give IMR 4198 a try. I've had great results from pussy cat loads to barn burners. Hodgdons data is easy to get on-line.