45 acp 230 gr FMJ for defense, why not?

[ARS1911]

I have been pondering on this for a while and something I read in a gun mag the other day( I know dont believe everything you read) made me wonder why not 230 gr fmj for self defense? I know most people will say over penetration is the key issue but as was stated in the article I read "most case studies of over penetration was attributed to 9mm and 38spl". I mean I'm not a reloader and never have professed to be one but it seems to me that this article made sense seeing as how 9mm and 38spl are small bullets moving at a fairly high speed.

On the other hand you have 45 acp a large bullet moving at a relatively slow speed. And everyone who is a fan of the 45acp knows about its stopping power with 230 ball. So I would really like to hear from some of you on the subject.

 

[mtngunr]

I carry FMJ for reliable feed....the bullet is already almost 1/2" across, so no suspect expansion needed, unlike smaller calibers...expansion at ACP velocities dependent on either +P velocities and/or very expensive boutique bullets....also carry .45 Colt SWC's at 1000fps for the same reason....think the 250gr .45 Colt SWC's superior due to meplat/weight/velocity, but an ACP works fine, as combat experience shows.....

 

[falnovice]

Because hollow-points are more effective in every caliber.

I wouldn't load ball unless the gun wouldn't feed anything else. I want every edge I can get.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

I wouldn't load ball unless the gun wouldn't feed anything else. I want every edge I can get.

Agreed. In fact, I would take it a step further and say that if a modern design handgun will not feed hollowpoints I will have it repaired - because obviously something is wrong with it and it is not performing as designed - or gotten rid of. Even if a hollowpoint doesn't expand, you still have a .45 caliber hole. If it does, so much the better - you have an even bigger hole.

 

[mtngunr]

More effective in every caliber?....at what velocity?.....what experience is this based on?....probably somebody else's, I bet.....as I always say to someone who poo-poo's any caliber of any gun, you stand out there at 25yds and let me shoot you several times with any gun I own, and then report back about how ineffective any of them are......the only sure stop, whether hunting or self-defense, is a hit to the central nervous system, no matter the caliber or gauge....anything else is just "I hope this works,"......

 

[ARS1911]

Great comments guys glad to hear some different answers. How are hollow points more effective if you have to shoot someone wearing clothing wouldnt that foul up the cavity of the bullet and essentially make the bullet the same as a full metal jacket?

 

[falnovice]

mtngunr,
Yes, in every caliber. I think you will find this is very well accepted in the shooting community.
As far as "poo-poo"ing any caliber or gun I don't. Handguns are poor manstoppers all things considered. I want every edge I can get.

I too am a big "shot placement" guy, but at some point caliber does become an issue. If not then we all would pack .22s.

I wrote this:

Because hollow-points are more effective in every caliber.

I wouldn't load ball unless the gun wouldn't feed anything else. I want every edge I can get.

You responded this:

More effective in every caliber?....at what velocity?.....what experience is this based on?....probably somebody else's, I bet.....as I always say to someone who poo-poo's any caliber of any gun, you stand out there at 25yds and let me shoot you several times with any gun I own

You seem to be looking for a fight, at least that is how your post comes across to me.

 

[Quickdraw McGraw]

This argument could go on and on but the best bullet is the one you have in the snout when the s#&t hits the fan!

 

[.38 Special]

Round nose bullets suck. Anyone who doubts this can go hunt with them. Gunsmith Hamilton Bowen wrote of shooting a gopher with a 50 AE roundnose, and noted that it took a "dogged foot pursuit before administering a coup de grace" after having shot the critter in the middle. Hunters in the BP days noted that 200-300 grain round nose bullets fired from black powder rifles at ACP velocities left pin holes in game animals with almost no tissue destruction and many lost animals.

 

[ARS1911]

good point quickdraw. I didnt mean to start an argument I simple was hoping someone could give me reason why not fmj's. I know the ammo companies want you to carry hp's ( prices higher they make more money ) but could someone tell why fmj would not be just as effective for defense. I know the expansion argument but like mtngunr said its almost a half inch in diameter, how much more do you need.

 

[.38 Special]

Round nosed bullets zip through flesh without seriously disrupting it. Essentially, the bullet is pushing tissue out of the way and after the bullet has passed through, the tissue moves back into place with a minimum of damage and bleeding. This is almost regardless of bullet diameter, so is not meant to impugn the .45 ACP in particular.

Short version: there's a reason handgun hunters don't use round nose projectiles.

 

[NC-Mike]

Round-nose bullets seem to work well for the military...

Just sayin.


I know, I know, they _have_ to use them but they still work.

 

[mtngunr]

me, too....just sayin'.....230gr FMJ worked as advertised in combat, even though we lacked any of the currently available milspec specialty loads...a double-tap in the chest with 230's puts them down....no fight intended, only personal experience quoted.....

 

[.38 Special]

Funny that they work in the military but not on the street or in the hunting field.

Just sayin'...

 

[Mad Magyar]

but could someone tell why fmj would not be just as effective for defense.

Because as sure as the "sun comes up", someone will mention how a FMJ will: 1. Go through a perp like "swiss cheese". 2. The bullet then will exit & go through your cheap "drywall". 3. It will proceed to your dreadful neighbors dry-wall; finally mortally wounding the dog you dislike.... BTW, I would like to see the "mutt & jeff" team on Guns &Ammo TV finally prove or disprove this age old debate during one of their tortuous gun tests....

 

[Sunray]

"...everyone who is a fan of the 45acp knows about its stopping power with 230 ball..." It's a Hollywood myth. No handgun round will give you a 100% guaranteed 1 shot stop.
"...Funny that they work in the military..." They didn't and don't. The military has different rules they must comply with. In any case, military handguns are primarliy status symbols. Plus meathead(MP's) issue and last ditch "I screwed up and ran out of rifle ammo" firearms.
An FMJ will do for self-defence, but there are better bullets. The over penetration issue is real though. If a bullet goes through a house wall(they're not all brick) and kills or damages anything or anybody, you're toast.

 

[NC-Mike]

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob93.html

 

[mtngunr]

If you live in densely populated urban area, then arguments against FMJ might be valid....also against anything but frangibles.....luckily, I live where if a slug from rifle, shotgun, or handgun, is of risk only toward what it's aimed at.....as for the difference between combat and hunting ammo, the one-shot-stop/instant-drop in hunting ammo is as rare in hunting as it is in combat.....placement is the key, the bigger/heavier the better....

 

[1/7GRUNT]

I know that this thread is about handgun rounds but I was wondering if anyelse had heard this. That the military had chosen 5.56mm for a combat round due to the fact that it was more likely to wound rather than kill. That and the lower weight issue. I had heard this stated under the premise that a wounded soldier ties up more resources than a dead one.
Probably urban myth but was just curious.
Thanks

 

[gunfighter48]

There is no magic bullet. When hollow points plug up and fail to expand guess what you have, A FMJ. While the new bullets are better than a decade ago, JHPs do fail to expand all to often. Search around the internet and you'll find pictures of HPs and FMJs in ballistic jell. While the FMJ usually penetrate a few inches more than HPs, it's not than much farther. If you hit a thin spot of the body, arms, hands, or legs, you are most likely going to have over penetration even with a JHP.

Having said all of that I do use JHPs in my self defense guns (45s), hoping that they do in fact expand. But I would not feel unprotected carrying FMJs. I have carried FMJ when I ran out of JHPs, not a problem.

 

[Mad Magyar]

If a bullet goes through a house wall(they're not all brick) and kills or damages anything or anybody, you're toast.

Good point, but I say: Prove It! The reason you won't see this tested in a scientific method in the gun rags or placed on Guns & Ammo TV is no way will they chance losing a "golden Cow" multi-million exotic ammo industry if tests show no significant difference....Can you imagine some of these mfgr's cringing when some of their brands do not expand as advertised?
M. Ayoob's article is anecdotal. Skeeter S., Bill J., and present day Clint Smith loaded up with FMJ...Why...Simple...Odds favor 100% reliability for a follow shot....

 

[NC-Mike]

M. Ayoob's article is anecdotal.

From the article:
Experience has taught police that what actually happens on the street is more important than what happens in the artificial environment of the laboratory. The 9mm round now acknowledged to work the best is a 124-grain to 127-grain high tech hollow point at a velocity of 1250 feet per second. NYPD, with some 30,000 officers carrying this type of ammo, the Speer Gold Dot +P 124-grain, is happy with the performance of its 9mm service pistols. Ditto the Orlando, Florida, Police Department, which uses the Winchester Ranger 127-grain +P+ in their standard issue 9mm SIGs.

Sometimes "anecdotal" evidence is more valuable than what comes out of the lab. The science of wound ballistics tells us big, fast bullets that expand create the largest wound channels and are most effective, the compromises come in the delivery of that bullet.

 

[Cocked & Locked]

I do not feel "ill prepared" when carrying a .45 ACP loaded with 230 grain FMJ Ball.

 

[Water-Man]

FMJ ammo is fine in a .45acp and you don't have to worry about over penetration. BUT it's not as effective for self defense as a good JHP.

 

[lazyeye]

If it works, use it. .45acp fmj has been used for a while, effectively.

However... If for a few dollars more that you can afford you can load your magazine with something that increases your effectiveness, shouldn't you do it?

What I'm saying is, why settle for adequacy? Using the absolute minimum for a job doesn't make you more macho.

Its like using a 9mm to hunt scrub oak deer because its the absolute minimum that will put one down.