Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by ARS1911, Jun 20, 2008.
Nope. Totally, completely and irretrievably debunked.
FULL POWER ball is fine in 45 for me. Some of the factory ammo is, ahem....weak. 230's @ 850 should do anything that needs done if placed anywhere close to correctly. Also, any ammo that will penetrate deep enough on the most demanding shot WILL overpenetrate on a lesser one. Overpenetration is a GOOD thing....especially if using 45's. But, you will be hardpressed to find many examples of solidly hit men not stopping 45 ball.
use of .45acp FMJ 230gr ball ammo...
I'd avoid the .45acp 230gr FMJ load for protection mainly because it's real documented use in shootings is only about 65%(1 shot stop). Other rounds like the .357sig .40S&W or 9mmNATO have improved specs with JHP or HP and are smaller than the .45acp.
The 230gr FMJ load does feed very well but only goes around 830 fps, .
If you really want a .45acp for duty or protection/CC use, I'd go with a factory made 230gr JHP +P or a 200gr JHP +P, bonded.
Some so-called premium factory hollowpoint loads are loaded too slow to convince me that expansion will occur. The Speer Gold Dot 230g load has a velocity of less than 800 fps out of a 5" barrel.
My last comment, I promise.... But speaking of "beating a dead Horse", a little over a 100 yrs ago, while government officials were trying to assess the truth of why the Moros insurgents were still standing after taking direct hits, a commission, Thompson-LaGarde, (same Thompson of the submachine gun fame,) conducted a study of caliber effectivenss using live animals, horse & cows. How long it took to kill the beasts, how many shots, and penetration analysis by different calibers.
In essence, yes the larger caliber .45 was the victor, but variables such as shot placement hitting arteries, bones, or major organs, etc. played havoc with their results.
My point is this: if you fired a .45acp JHP & FMJ into say a stomach channel and missed the vertebra/bone completely, which bullet is more likely to wind up in your next door neighbors house?
They seem to work adequately. But there is no reason not to pick something that works even BETTER!!! if our guys could carry HP's, how many do you think would choose to carry FMJ?
The fact that they make due with a "less good" round, doesn't mean that we should choose it when we have options.
Me? I only carry FMJ's in my pocket .380. But .380 isn't as deep a penetrator as .45acp, so the FMJ is to help penetration.
I don't carry a .45. if I did, i'd choose HPs, but honestly. .45FMJ is fine.
Hard ball for defense !
About the only use for hardball in 45 acp. is punching paper ! Some elite LE units load them as a first round in their mags to defeat auto glass! They should really only be used as a last resort because of overpenetration. The perp you may have to shoot in a crowded place should be the only person hit, and not several bystanders!
Sunray hit the nail on the head yesterday about defending yourself in court after having killed or injured several bystanders even in a legal shooting, You would be TOAST !!
Funny. Hardball is more likely to glance off a windshield than a hollowpoint, and as far as punching straight through a side window, I doubt if there would be a whit of difference with bullets of equal mass. The additional 50-60 fps provided by +P won't make much diffrence either.
I think a lot of the overpenetration concern is unfounded, because it assumes that the shooter won't miss his intended target. If a miss occurs, it won't make much difference what type of bullet that the little old lady down at the end of the block is struck with.
Anyone who doubts what .45 hardball will do to a human body at close range only needs to see it firsthand. Not pretty...
I end up using 230 LRN or 225 TC, because that's my IDPA match and practice load. I DO run ball through my 1911A1, to replenish the brass supply. And I wouldn't feel under-equipped if that's all I had in a fight. IF you feel more confident with a .45 filled with JHPs or whatever, besides FMJ, then use them. I doubt whether the shootER or the shootEE will be able to tell the difference, one time in a thousand.
If you feel an expanding .45 ACP JHP doesn't penetrate enough, then yes, use FMJ. If the JHP .45 penetrates enough even after expanding, then all the more better; keep the JHP. It's that plain, and that simple. I'd rather shoot a bear (for instance) with .45 ACP FMJ, rather than .45 ACP JHP... since I pretty much know the FMJ has more of a chance of penetrating deeper than the JHP! And against a bear, penetration matters more than expansion, imo.
Same would go for a really, REALLY big (300 lbs.+) criminal running at you.
Actually, that goes for rifles, as well. I remember reading even a shotgun slug couldn't directly stop a guy with one shot; at least not immediately.
It all depends on the placement of the bullet in the end, whether from a rifle or pistol. Still, the heavier, faster and bigger... the better. At least in "my" book.
"NOTHING is guaranteed in this world." <~~ is what really should be said. ALWAYS expect failures, because this is how most people DO survive! They come up with plan B (and plan C, and plan... you get the point).
Anyway, having a "one shot stop" mindset while holding ANY gun (rifle or pistol) is not good. We do not just shoot a bad guy who's trying to kill us "just once" and see if he falls to the floor. No. No. NO! We keep shooting until we SEE him fall to the floor, even when we're shooting him with an AK-47.
A can of pepper spray would be good to have, as well. Not only shooting a criminal, but making him cough his lungs out and eyes burn, at the same time? All the better!
Excessive penetration and not enough tissue disruption make the 230 ball a poor stopper. It's not terrible, but a hollow point works better. I carry a 200 grain Speer, myself. If the auto won't feed hollow points, I rid my self of the POS and get one that will. That's why I no longer own a 1911 of any kind. The world is full of Sigs, Rugers, CZs, Glocks, Springfield XPs, and such that DO feed hollow points reliably.
As to excessive penetration, many discount this, but you are responsible for where that bullet goes after the shot is fired, by law, just read it in the Texas penal code, took the re-up class Thursday. I don't wanna go to prison because I killed some kid in the house next door or in the car down the street because my bullet passed through the BG and went on its own way. Frankly, I'd carry magsafe or glasier, but for the fact they are expensive to test in the gun for reliability and tend to be not that accurate. A big hollow cavity is my choice at the current time.
Forget the military with your choice for SD. Not a good comparison. Military worries more about penetrating armor, has no liability for stray rounds flying around Baghdad, and is constrained by the "rules of war", oxymoron or not.
Some experts say if the bullet is not traveling over 1050 fps then it won't expand reliably in soft tissue. This questions whether a .45acp will expand in soft tissue. The nice thing about the .45acp is it doesn't really need to expand. Also remember that if the hollowpoint does expand you will probably loose some penetration. Some suggest FMJ for the .45acp and especially the .380acp. You get much better penetration with the .380acp if you use FMJ.
Chuck Taylor; .45acp- 230gr ball, "elite LE units"
Well known gun writer and firearms trainer; Chuck Taylor wrote for many many years that the .45acp/230gr FMJ load was best for LE/protection/CC.
I don't know what SWAT or LE units would use FMJ loads in .45acp as an issued round but I guess it could be true. I'd think most US sworn LEOs that use 1911a1 pistols or .45acp would have 230gr JHP +P or 185/200gr JHP loads.
I know a lot of people are fans of the FMG. My only concern is in shooting the BG. I still trust the HP over the FMG because , if it does expand and spend it's energy in the BG we're all better off . Lawyers are just waiting to show concealed handgun owners as dimwits. Let's don't hand them a slam dunk.
Unfortunately, lawyers have it "both ways"!...There was a picture in a recent gun rag of the latest SD rd, IIRC, off the Ranger Series...It's effect after stoppage was the "ugliest 5-headed harpoon" you'd never want to see in your innards...Now a lawyer is going to ask: "What was your intent against my paralyzed "perp"?"
I carry HP for two reasons, 1) to prevent over penetration (doesn't help in a miss) & 2) I've see what ball & HP ammo does to a bowling pin. HP "grabs" the pin much more effectively. FMJ is a fine bullet for somethings, but for me HP are the way to go. I would never feel out gunned with FMJ in the pistol. I just want to take as much precaution as possible for the bullet I discharge to stay in the intended target.
This seems to be going pretty fast for a .45.(1010 fps)
I am a big fan of the .45 but shooting in self-defence is like buying a house.. "Location, Location, Location"..Big, fast, hollow , sollid, .22, .50 don't matter if you miss. I carry hollow point right now but if all I had was FMJ I would use it without any worries about the bullet working, just me
UP close and personal, it is..
230gr JHP, as the 2 fears I have in FMJ is under 35ft FMJ has a great chance of going clean thru and beyond with velocity..
And, again, up close and personal, in what I have read and been told by experts that use 45 JHP everyday, with real circumstantial use, it has more punch, in that, it hits, hard, spreads wider and stays inside target (more internal contact) than FMJ, doing more damage, along with not overpenetrating, which is like having a stone in your shoe, vs a clean shot in and out, so to speak, and it will go thru doors, be them wood or car doors, corners of walls, at most SD closer-civil range/distances used.
But, if one doesn't trust JHP to feed 100%, then indeed, FMJ is the choice, but is less forgiving in the long-run, no punt intended..
I don't NEED to drive a 6-cylinder car.
A four-banger would get me there most of the time in due course.
Depending on where you go, a four-banger might be all you ever need.
I like the option of going different places.
I'll hedge my bets with the best performance I can get, and still within the bounds of practicality.
I'd be really disappointed if I had an expensive .45 auto that I couldn't trust to reliably function with hollow-point ammo.
But, I guess its a 1911 thing. I'll never understand.
.45auto FMJ's are sufficient for self defense. JHP's are going to be better in almost every instance. I would recommend being ready for the most likely scenario, which for most people would mean using HP's. They usually expand reliably, and will cause more damage when expanded, most likely leading to the threat being stopped faster. There are really not many, if any, reasons to use a FMJ over a JHP. If you find that JHP's do not feed reliably, don't carry FMJ's, fix your gun.
Yes, that can happen. But more often they expand. Why choose a round you know will not expand when you could use a round that probably will?
(Don't look, you won't find one)
Use the load YOU feel the most comfortable about. You will be under enough stress without having to second guess your ammo.
I shoot FMJ out of my Bersa BT380 for practice... ONLY. I shoot Cor-Bon DPX for a self defense load out of .380.
However, in .45 ACP I always carried Federal Hydra Shock. They are smaller, faster and expand usually as intended. A bullet that exits is a liability and any bullet that exits still has potential energy that was missed in leaving the intended target. FMJ will work and has proven time and time again, but I prefer to use the above as it is also proven and more modern guns should handle the ammo just fine. In fact Cor-Bon in .45 would be an excellent stopping round
For self defense purposes, I would choose a good quality JHP. Right now, I have Federal Hydra-Shoks, 230 grain, loaded in my self defense magazines; but any major brand would be fine with me, as long as I've verified that it functions reliably in the guns I'd use it with.
I'm satisfied that a good JHP offers superior terminal ballistics and is likely to be more effective. It's quite true that shot placement is the most important thing, but I'm not going to get better hits with an FMJ compared with a JHP. Shot placement is about how I shoot, not the bullet I'm shooting.
Of course, self defense ammunition must be reliable. I've found that all my 1911s are 100% reliable with the major brand JHPs I've tested them with. And anyone using a JHP as his self defense round should fully test his self defense weapons with the ammunition he might use. But it's been my experience that in general a properly put together 1911 will function reliably with good quality JHP ammunition.
As far as I know, virtually all police agencies use JHPs.
When considering bullet choice, I think it's well to reflect that there were four ways in which shooting an assailant would stop the fight:
 psychological -- "I'm shot, it hurts, I don't want to get shot any more."
 massive blood loss depriving the muscles and brain of oxygen and thus significantly impairing their ability to function
 breaking major skeletal support structures
 damaging the central nervous system.
Of those, damage to the central nervous system is the quickest, surest and most likely to be fatal. And hoping the guy will stop because it hurts, is the least sure and most likely to be hazardous to your own health. People, both good and bad, have fought long and hard with serious, and often ultimately fatal wounds. And someone who has massive amounts of adrenalin in his system, like a bad guy under the stress of committing a violent crime might, may not feel much pain from even a serious wound.
Since adrenalin or drugs can blunt the effects of pain, and people have continued to fight when severely wounded, effectively stopping the fight usually requires causing sufficient damage to render the attacker physiologically incapable of continuing the fight, such as from massive blood loss depriving the muscles and brain of oxygen, major damage to important skeletal support structures or damage to the central nervous system.
We are generally taught, and practice, shooting for the center of mass of our attacker, i. e., his chest. It presents a bigger, and generally less mobile, target than the head. And the idea is that within that area of the body there are a lot of major organs that will bleed a lot when damaged. So the center of mass is the usual target of choice because it’s the one we’re most likely to be able to hit, and hits there are most likely to produce the greatest and most rapid blood loss. The rub is that the effects of blood loss and oxygen deprivation can take some time – during which our attacker will most likely continue to try to hurt us.
The more damage that is caused, the quicker the blood supply to the muscles and brain will be impaired and the more quickly the attacker will lose the physiological ability to press the fight. So we can try to increase the amount and rate of blood loss by (1) making more holes and (2) making bigger holes. A JHP by expanding helps us make bigger holes. Even if it doesn't expand, the holes are not going to be any smaller than we would have gotten with an FMJ.
Of course, if the BG decides to stop because he doesn’t like getting shot, that’s okay too. I’m just reluctant to count on it.
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