.45 ACP crimping question

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Grayrock

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I do not have .45ACP dies yet. I plan to get some. So far I only load .38/.357 and .45 Colt. Both of those head space off the rim. I can crimp them to hold the bullet in place with no problem. Since .45ACP is rimless & head spaces off the case mouth, how do you keep the bullets in place? If you "crimp" is that going to affect head space? Or do you flare the case mouth to accept the bullet, then the "crimping" is just returning it to a parallel condition with the sides? I'm guessing since you don't use .45ACP in tubular magazines the bullets don't have to be held in place as firmly as my other cartridges. But what about bullet setback due to recoil? Is that a concern?
 
Or do you flare the case mouth to accept the bullet, then the "crimping" is just returning it to a parallel condition with the sides?

Yes. The die can be set to put a "taper" crimp which is enough to remove the flare. Neck tension holds the bullet.
 
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The main issue loading 45ACP and other calibers that headspace on the case mouth is bullet tension in the brass. The sizing die and expander die should create a snug fit of bullet to brass. The taper crimp actually has no or little effect on bullets moving under recoil or cycling. The taper crimp mainly is just to turn back any belling of the case mouth. You should adjust the expander die to barely create a bell which allows the bullet to sit on the case when seating the bullet. The taper crimp die should iron down any belling no more than .001" less than the diameter of the case measured around the seated bullet. Just insure your sizing die and expander size the brass correctly for a snug bullet fit. Some old very thin walled 45 ACP may not size down enough to hold a bullet tightly. If you feel the expander not doing any expanding then your brass may be too thin (old brass mainly old RP brass) then you should check bullet tension. The carbide ring in the sizing die should be a dimension that will size the brass down and the expander should be the correct size to create proper tension. Pressing hard with your thumb or pushing the case against your bench should show that a bullet may be too loose. Don't want loose bullets in 45 ACP, 9MM, 40 S&W or other cases that headspace on the case mouth.
 
This is about the best thing I have seen on taper crimping.

Taper Crimp in inches = bullet diameter + (case neck wall thickness X 2) - .004

Squeeze Play: How to Properly Crimp Ammunition
By Patrick Sweeney December 17th, 2012

Listening to reloading talk at the gun club, you’d think that crimp is part voodoo, part rocket science. How much, and how much for which caliber and application, seems as much random guesswork as it is recordable, testable mechanics.

Crimp, in this context, is the pressing of the case mouth back into place after seating the bullet—the final step in reloading your own ammo (well, the last step before inspecting said ammo). And to compound it, we have two crimps: roll and taper. Generally speaking, roll crimp goes on revolver rounds, and taper goes on pistol, but taper is so versatile it can work on both.

Taper crimp is much more forgiving than roll crimp, but it is also more subtle, so this article will delve into the aspects of taper crimp.

Your taper crimp die has a short section of cone-shaped taper at the top. You adjust how much crimp you are applying by screwing your die deeper into the press.

When you press the loaded cartridge in—you really should seat the bullet and taper-crimp as separate operations, not do both in the same die—the tapered portion squeezes the case mouth in. But it crimps it in as a cone, it constricts it evenly, and it keeps the case mouth pointed forward, not turning it inward—as the roll crimp does.

You want to do enough but not too much. If you crimp too little, the extra drag of the un-crimped mouth will cause feeding problems. If you crimp too much, you’ll get a round that won’t chamber or won’t shoot accurately.

I have a sample that was over-crimped into a jacketed .45 ACP 230-grain roundnose, and when the case couldn’t be crimped any more (the hard bullet stopped inward progress) the case then buckled. To no one’s surprise, the reloader complained of unreliable function in his pistol. An over-crimped lead or plated bullet tells you it is unhappy by hurling patterns, not groups.

For taper crimp, practical shooting reloaders have been doing it long enough to have hard measurements. Take the bullet diameter, plus twice the case wall thickness and then subtract .004 inch. As a general rule, and rough estimate, you can count on a handgun case neck wall being right around .01-inch thick. So for the .45 ACP, take a bullet of .452 inch, add .02 inch (.010×2) for a total of .472 inch. Then subtract .004 from that .472 and you get a goal crimp of .468 inch. Apply the same arithmetic for other calibers. A .40 or 10mm would be .400 plus .020 minus .004, which leaves us at .416.

Take your caliper and measure the diameter of a loaded round right at the case mouth. The number you get should match the calculation. (And while it’s a less precise telltale sign, if you rub your fingertip down a case and feel a right-angle edge around the case mouth, the round is insufficiently crimped.)
Since many pistol bullets lack a crimp groove or cannelure, you’ll be taper-crimping into the bullet itself. If you taper-crimp a revolver cartridge (yes, it works; I do it for almost all my revolver rounds) you have it easier. Since you’ll have a crimp groove or cannelure in your revolver bullet, you can start with the calculation but crimp into the groove. If you want, crimp a bit more, until the edge of the case mouth contacts the bottom of the crimp groove or cannelure.

Now, not all bullets, nor all cartridges, are happy with this measurement method. If you find accuracy goes all to hell with the calculated crimp, you will have to experiment.

I have found the 9mm to be particularly touchy in this regard, especially with plated bullets. Minor variations in your particular set of dies, your press and your handguns (not to mention the brand of bullets you are using) may require small adjustments in order to produce the best results. But the above method will get you in the ballpark.

When you are setting up your press, it is best to start with a vanilla-plain load, with known performance, and load only a few rounds in each of two or three taper-crimp settings. Record where the die and lockdown rings are for each, and then check your new ammo on target.

Revolvers are spectacularly forgiving of casual taper crimp into the crimp groove, until you get up to the hottest magnum. And then they might get touchy.

Okay, what don’t we use crimp for? Bullet security, a job best handled via neck tension. While the crimp does a small part to control set-back and bullet pull, the main work in that area is done by the neck tension.

You control these factors by the diameter of the neck expander in your die set.* A neck that is too large to control set-back or bullet pull cannot be corrected with crimp, no matter how ferociously you crimp the case. All you do is hasten the onset of neck splits.

As an aside, you have correct neck tension when you can see the “Coke bottle” effect on your case, once loaded. If the case tapers inwards beneath the base of the bullet, like the bottom half of an old-school Coke bottle, then you have a good amount.

One good crimp/neck-tension check to perform is to load a couple dozen rounds, measure the overall length of one round, mark it and place that one at the bottom of a magazine. Shoot the magazine, except for the last round. Eject it and measure it. Has it become shorter? If not, good. Load it at the bottom of another magazine, shoot all but the marked round, eject and measure it. If it’s still the same length and accuracy is good, you’re done.

If it shortens due to recoil, start over with greater neck tension. Load another 10 to 12 rounds and try again. It can take a bit of fussing, but the results are worth it.
 
Since .45ACP is rimless & head spaces off the case mouth, how do you keep the bullets in place? If you "crimp" is that going to affect head space?
Neck tension holds the bullet, period.

The "crimp" is to remove the bell, or a hair more. It will not help neck tension.

If you over crimp and push the case walls in too far, yes, it can affect headspace, although the extractor will likely hold the case back enough to fire.
 
Edster12 said:
Taper Crimp in inches = bullet diameter + (case neck wall thickness X 2) - .004
Squeeze Play: How to Properly Crimp Ammunition
By Patrick Sweeney December 17th, 2012

For taper crimp, practical shooting reloaders have been doing it long enough to have hard measurements. Take the bullet diameter, plus twice the case wall thickness and then subtract .004 inch. As a general rule, and rough estimate, you can count on a handgun case neck wall being right around .01-inch thick.
I am no expert and certainly don't write professional reloading/gun articles but I have to disagree. With three different calipers I have, I rarely measure case wall thickness at .010". Most of my measurements run around .012" with some thicker at .013"+. I rarely see anything thinner than .011" and almost never at .010". Most verified once-fired 9/40/45 cases I pick up at the range now run around .012". Maybe shooters in my area only special order "thicker" walled factory cases. :rolleyes:

So for the .45 ACP, take a bullet of .452 inch, add .02 inch (.010×2) for a total of .472 inch. Then subtract .004 from that .472 and you get a goal crimp of .468 inch.
No, for me I use .012" as case wall thickness and I get:

Lead bullet .452"
+ .024" = .476" then minus .004" gives me .472" (and this taper crimp will work with my tighter Sig 1911 chamber)
Jacketed bullet .451" + .024" = .475" - .004" = .471"

I just measured several Federal/Remington/PMC factory 230 gr FMJ rounds and I got around .471" at the case mouth.


Apply the same arithmetic for other calibers. A .40 or 10mm would be .400 plus .020 minus .004, which leaves us at .416.
No. .400" + .024" = .424" - .004" = .420"

I just measured several Remington GS 165 gr JHP and I got around .419" - .420" at the case mouth.


Am I crazy for disagreeing about the thickness of case wall at .012"?
 
I agree with you. If someone asked me for an average, I would have said around .012, with the usual caveat that some are thinner and some are thicker.
 
The best test for case neck tension is pressing the nose of the bullet HARD against your bench. You should get no movement. None.

The test Mr. Sweeney mentions, measuring rounds loaded in mags before and after firing, doesn't put enough pressure on the bullet. The inertia bullets experience in mags upon firing can cause setback, but the force is not as great and reliable as the press test.

The purpose of case neck tension in auto rounds is to prevent "bullet setback." Setback can happen with insufficient neck tension when chambering the round and the nose of the bullet smacks into the feed ramp. The "press test" is meant to replicate this condition. It works. And you don't have to go to the range to do it.
 
moxie said:
The test Mr. Sweeney mentions, measuring rounds loaded in mags ... doesn't put enough pressure on the bullet. The inertia bullets experience in mags upon firing can cause setback, but the force is not as great
That's what I thought too. Mr Sweeney tests crimp/bullet setback by loading a full magazine and checks the OAL/COL of the last round in the magazine after other rounds have been fired.

The purpose of case neck tension in auto rounds is to prevent "bullet setback." Setback can happen with insufficient neck tension when chambering the round and the nose of the bullet smacks into the feed ramp.
Yes, I agree. And I think the force of bullet nose smacking into the feed ramp with the force of slide returning to battery

The "press test" is meant to replicate this condition. It works. And you don't have to go to the range to do it.
I used to use the press test against the bench top and it would detect obvious insufficient neck tension as bullet would seat deeper. However, some rounds that passed the press test may exhibit decreased OAL/COL when fed/chambered from the magazine and slide released without riding it.

The "press test" against the bench top is a good and fast way to identify neck tension issue but I think the "feed/chamber test" from the magazine better duplicates the forces of slide cycling.
 
I like and admire Mr Sweeney. He is obviously an expert gunsmith and may be a good shooter. He has obviously been a "plus" for our greater shooting sports community.

However, as more sophisticated guns have come on the market in the last 25 years, I'm sure his services as gunsmith have decreased, while his income from writing has increased tenfold. So when gun book sales go flat, who do the publishers transform into a specialist in reloading... the new hot gun-related topic? But those type transformations are a stretch; akin to transforming an anti-Vietnam war expert into an expert on all world affairs, learned enough to become Secretary of State. It's simply laughable. :rolleyes:


As an engineer, the most appealing method to me is the one I read here on THR. Premise: Taper crimp is to erase the belling. Solution: Take a sized and expanded case, but one that is un-belled, and seat a bullet. Since the case never had a "flair", the physical dimension of the case mouth is your optimal taper crimp diameter. Period.

This method accounts for all variations in case wall thickness, bullet diameter, and die sizing, without all the algebra, hocus-pocus, smoke, mirrors, and black art "best left to experts" mystery.

What could be simpler ? ;)
 
Measuring above and below where the flare was. Running a dial caliper's knife edges lightly along the case where the bullet is seated (starting at the base of the bullet) to see if any flare is left or some indention is there.

You can see where the crimp die touched this case. It is .271 at the case mouth and .272 just below the mark and all the way to the base of the bullet.

Berrys 230 Gr RN .45 ACP Crimp Pic a.JPG
 
I have no idea. That was one I pulled randomly out of a Bagmaster bag full of reloads and measured the crimp to answer a question.

Here is the same one where I added the measurements.

Pic Link

(Edit: Changed pic to the one with measurements in post above)
 
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Can't add any more info to this except , if you are getting a new set up dies, hornady makes a seater/taper crimp die now. Keeps you from having to buy a fourth separate taper crimp die.
 
I read the lee instructions in your link and at the bottom of step 5 it talks about crimping just a bit. Most die sets will seat and crimp at the same time but the crimp is a roll crimp. I won't go into more in depth explanation because previous posts have done a much better job than I could. Hornady came out with a new die set that does seating and taper crimp at the same time. Before if you wanted a true taper crimp you had to but a specific taper crimp die ( not in the linked lee set).

http://m.hornady.com/store/3-Die-Taper-Crimp-Sets/
Read about this and see if it helps clear it up.

Basically if you are going to buy a set, you might as well get one with a built in taper crimp or you will have to buy it separate. It being together saves you a step in the process and an extra station if you are using a progressive press.
 
Some of the new dies (Hornady for sure) have a modified crimp ledge which does not do a true taper crimp. The old style seater crimpers with a normal taper crimp built in are easy to seat and crimp with since there is so little bullet movement when crimping and so little (Virtually none) inward movement of the brass when the crimp is applied.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7699828&postcount=14
 
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