45 ACP or 44 SPL (for my wife)

[The Real Hawkeye]

An N-Frame .45 ACP should work well for her. So would a K-Frame .38. Don't discount it. The reason the cops dropped the .38 was not because it didn't have potential as a fighting round, it was because the old 158 grain round nose bullets that most departments required (for political reasons) their officers to carry would not stop bad guys when they were high on PCP. Before PCP, the old round nosed bullets worked fine on bad guys. After PCP, the departments needed to switch to 158 grain lead SWC HP +p, but for political reasons chose not to (Back then, all hollowpoint ammo was thought of as "dum dum bullets," i.e., something designed to cause unnecessarily vicious wounds, and it was commonly thought that the good guys shouldn't use them). If they had done this in mass, they would likely still, to this day, be carrying .38 Special revolvers. The 158 grain lead SWC HP is as effective at stopping determined attackers as the .45 ACP in military ball configuration, and just ask our troops in Iraq if they think the .45 ACP in military ball configuration is effective. They will tell you it is all they need in a handgun. I recommend you go with an S&W Model 10 stoked with 158 grain lead SWC HP +Ps. She will have no trouble handling it, and do you want to talk about cheap practice ammo?

 

[Gewehr98]

This thread is turning absolutely hilarious!

Gentlemen, we've heard from the husband that she prefers .44 Special.

So what do we do? We push her towards .38 Special and .357 Magnum.

Nice. Let's reinforce the "little lady needs..." stereotype just a bit more.

My ex-wife was visibly upset when I tried to talk her into a J-frame .38 once upon a time.

She asked, "Why can't I have a .45 ACP 1911 like yours?" Why not, indeed. She still has her 1911, last I heard.

If the person wanting the firearm is familiar with a given chambering, and plainly states so, then why can't she have it?

It kind of reminds me of the threads where somebody is asking opinions on the various 1911 models out there, and some joker hops in and proclaims, "Get a Glock!"

Jford1, if your wife prefers the .44 Special, by all means, get her one. My current wife (#2) has settled on a 6" 9mm Navy Luger, a bit off the beaten path but she demonstrates confident accuracy and smooth handling, so it's hers. So I keep the L-Frame .44 Special 696 for myself.

 

[molonlabe]

As a defense round I would be content knowing my wife was using a 44 special. An excellent defense and accurate round.

In fact I vote for the 696 above.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

No, I indicated that she could handle the more powerful guns in an N-Frame. I was just responding to a reflexive dismissal of the .38 Special as inadequate. This is too common a notion, and it needs dispelling. Once informed, she can pick what she likes, but it should be an informed decision, not one based on the myth of the ineffectiveness of the .38 Special. It would not have been the standard police round for 60 years or more if it was ineffective on human attackers. Even, as I said, the old lead round nose was effective on anyone not hopped up on drugs. As long as you are not fighting crazed Moros in the Philippines, or drugged out weirdoes, the old led round nose would even be fine, but we have much better than that nowadays in .38 Special. That was my only point. Not trying to talk anyone into anything.

 

[Stainz]

Great advice re a model 10 and the old 'FBI' load, the +P 158gr LHPSWC. Current 10, 64 (SS 10), and 67 (SS adj sight 10) models are +P rated, check with S&W on older models before a diet of such are used. In 'One Shot Stop' stats, that load from a 2" barrel was ~8% more effective than 230gr ball ammo from a typical 1911. My 2" 10 is loaded with them - actually, the Remington #R38S12 version. A great new model to consider is the 620 (SKU #164401 38 oz) - it's a 4" 7-shot L-frame .357M, like the 686+, but has a partial lug, like the 66 it replaced.

The 4" 625's, like the feature-laden 625JM I bought two years ago, are heavy - 43 oz - actually a bit nose heavy, due to that full lug. Plenty of moonclips kept loaded is the answer for range trips. It is a bit more harsh in the sudden onset of it's recoil at max levels. It is a higher pressure round, at 21kpsi, than the .44 Special & .45 Colt, both 14kpsi - seemingly offering more of a push there, too, rather than the more brisk .45 ACP's recoil. Remember, some recoil energy in a semi-auto is absorbed in the mechanism and spring... you power the ammo feed in a revolver. A .45 ACP revolver will bump more than a semi-auto.

You can save some weight by going to a similar 4" N-frame, as having a partial lug saves a bit, making the standard 4" 629 (SKU #163603) weigh 41.5 oz. Another two oz can be pared away if you find the tapered tube 629 Mountain Gun, but it is not currently in production. I replaced my old 629MG last year with a standard 4" 629 and like the change (Sights, trigger, & hammer). My 4" & 6" 629's now have the same sights, hammer, and trigger and sport the backstrap-enclosing Hogue .500 Magnum grips for recoil absorption. That 4" 629MG was fine with my smallish rounded non-f.g. cocobolo Ahrends stocks with any of my 240gr LSWC loads or the excellent 200gr Gold Dot .44 Specials , Blazer or GA Arms variants). The .500 Magnum grips, and try the fit of your hand via handling a .460 or .500 S&W at your dealer, are $35 from S&W - and a bargain, as far as recoil help is concerned. The one grip fits K,L,N, and X-frames, so you can use it to tame a 625 - or even a 686 with hot magnums.

I have a 296 & 696 - I'd get the 4" 629. A new one will be less than a used 696 - and weigh only six ounces more - and has one more round, another inch of barrel, and real .44M capability. But... consider that 620. Real .357 Magnum capability - super .38 7-shooter. The gun really points well, but begs for other grips, IMHO (I hate open back Hogue rubber OEM grips!). I liked the K-frame standards, the Uncle Mike's Combats, a la the current 10, 64, & 67. I really like wood - everything but those 629's sports wood - mostly Ahrends. They could always come later...

BTW, my wife is 5'10" - and doesn't like the N-frames - especially that 625JM. Her idea of a bedside gun is that 2" 10 - with my 5.5" SS .45 Colt Redhawk as her 'house' gun. She shoots my 250gr Speer GDHP's and 255gr LSWC loads, both ~840+ fps, like they were .22LR. I wish I could get her back to that 2" 10... but, I let her decide!

Stainz

PS I have two 625MG's in .45 Colt - she hates them... go figure!

 

[Old John]

Her GUN??

Hook686 said<<"If this will be "HER GUN ", why are you calling the shots (pardon the pun) ? The 4" 686 is a fine revolver. If she likes it, she might practice with it. It might then save her life, or yours. She can try 145 grain Winchester Silver Tip Hollow Points. These shoot at about 1200 fps, in my 4" 686. If these are too recoil rough on her, try the speer 135 grain Short Barrel Gold Dot Hollow Points. These can be had at about 900+ fps.">>>


Yiup! I would not think of telling DSW Sharon what she needed to shoot.
We went to the range. And, she picked out her 1st handgun, an Argentine
FN High-Power, Det. 9mm. We went to the gun show and she found a dozen
magazines for it. She did not want to spend range time, loading mags.

When she got a little more money ahead, she bought a S&W 6906.
I do NOT pick guns for her. I have 3 Mossbergs. She has 2 Rem. 870's.
She can shoot my Commanders in .45acp. She c'n shoot my son's Raging Bull
.480. She's kinda special. She's got my spare SP101, .357 as a bedside gun.

I guess what I'm saying, "Hey! Let Her pick Her Own Gun. She's going to shoot it." Trust Her!
Have Fun

 

[jford1]

Thanks for everyone’s input!

After talking with my wife we’ve decided that the 44 special is the way to go. We will look at both the 696 (if I can find one) and 629 4-inch. I have a feeling that the longer barrel and extra 3-4 oz. of the 629 will win out. If she gets the smaller 696 the recoil and muzzle blast might start to catch up with her comfort level. She is afraid to get anything with a three-inch or smaller barrel after shooting the two-inch 640. She just wants a lighter version of my 629! The smaller frame size is nice but she has no interest in concealed carry and the weight difference is pretty small. I realize many people think that a 38 would serve her better but if she is fine with either a medium frame 38 or a large frame 44 spl why would you choose the 38? She’s not turned off by the size, and the weight is negligible, so the end result is a better defensive weapon that she is still comfortable with. I doubt anyone will argue that the 38 is a better stopper than the 44 spl if she is proficient with either one.

 

[Jim Watson]

Not many .44 Specials on the market, sounds like she will have a 629 x 4" magnum to shoot specials in. S&W catalogs it with a half underlug and weight of 41.5 oz which is only a couple of ounces heavier than a 1911 which about anybody can handle.

She will be well fixed, all you have to do is supply the ammo which will be a bit less varied and more expensive than .45 ACP but certainly accurate and effective.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

but if she is fine with either a medium frame 38 or a large frame 44 spl why would you choose the 38? She’s not turned off by the size, and the weight is negligible, so the end result is a better defensive weapon that she is still comfortable with. I doubt anyone will argue that the 38 is a better stopper than the 44 spl if she is proficient with either one.

No, but people who own K-Frame .38s tend to be much better shots than people who own N-Frame .44s. That's because the K-Framed .38s are such a joy to shoot, you will want to do it often, and practice ammo is cheap. The K-Frame is also, in my opinion, an ideal frame size for a defensive revolver. They tend to have the best double action triggers too. You go with an N-Frame usually when you are using it for big game hunting, where the double action pull isn't so important, and power is more important than shootability. Shot placement, in self defense shooting, is a much bigger factor than caliber choice, once you get into the .38 Special and over category. But if she likes the .44, maybe she will practice with it as much as your typical .38 owner practices with his.

 

[MK11]

What's that new super light scandium/titanium-something .44 mag S&W is making? You couldn't pay me to shoot it in .44 mag but it might be OK with 44 Specials. A 629 Mountain Gun might work too.

Taurus used to make some pretty decent 5-shot .44 specials with 3 and 4 inch barrels. They'd probably be as hard to find as a 696 but it's an option.

 

[joneb]

I once had Taurus mod 431 2 1/2" round butt 5 shot .44spl and sold it :banghead: But the reason was to fund another purchase, that was my S&W 696 ND
I found that my HKS speed loaders that worked well for the 431, did not for the 696. It seems HKS made the CA44 for the Bulldog and it had enough slop for the 431 but not the 696 Does anyone know of a speed loader for the S&W 696 ?
I think a .45 acp revo would be worth considering, you will have lots of cheap speed loaders and cheaper easier to find range ammo + a better selection of SD ammo.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I agree with what jibjab said. I have three .45 ACP S&W revolvers, one with adjustable sights/stainless (no key hole) and two with fixed sights/blued (one with a key hole). They really are ideal combat guns for the reasons jibjab stated, especially without adjustable sights.

 

[meef]

How about a nice Thunder Ranch Model 21?

N frame, .44 special, 4" barrel, spiffy-looking and it's got that neat gold emblem on the side! There's your answer.

If Clint Smith likes it, it's good enough for me.

CDNN has them for $599, that's well below retail.

I got mine, gold emblem and all (I can live with it), and it's a great gun for the money.

 

[rojoko]

44 spl or 45 acp??

I've shot more rounds of .44 spl (which I used to carry as my belly gun) and hundreds of thousands of rounds of .45.. everything from hardball to whatever...

The .44 spl and a moderate .45 load recoil the same... which one exception and that's if you use the light framed .44 spl.. like the old Charter Arms Bulldog. That's what I used to carry until one came apart in my hands during practice... sold it quickly.. went straight to .45acp.. although I have been known to carry a model 36 on occasion...

.45 acp is cheaper and easier to get. More practical in the long run. But I'd always seriously suggest an auto over a wheelgun.. you can't beat them, especially a well tuned 1911 type pistol.. even more so with an exceptional one like a Les Baer (sp?)... they are supperb.. even though even the SPringfields are ok..

 

[Stainz]

Odd - I have two HKS CA44 speedloaders that work perfectly with my 296 & 696 - and 200gr Blazer Gold Dots. Perfectly fine with any of my 200-240gr LSWC/LRNFP's and the 696. The HKS 29's are just about as fast with the 629's, for comparison... very nearly identical, speed-wise.

I'd hold out for a used 629MG at 39.5 oz, probably available relatively new at a bragain price from someone who 'thought' a 4" would be fun with Magnums. For new, just get a standard 4" 629, only two more ounces, yet a better w/o rear and red ramp front sight (MG is blk on blk), and has a larger hammer and trigger, too. My new 4" 629 last April was less than the lowest price I've seen on a 696 in years, too.

Stainz

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Charter Arms Bulldog. That's what I used to carry until one came apart in my hands during practice... sold it quickly.

That's funny. Back in the early 1980s the Bulldog .44 was my carry gun too. Then, same thing happened to mine at the range. A pin crept out while I was shooting. I kept pushing it back in, but it would just creep out again under recoil. It was a central pin related to the internal action parts, so it was pretty important. I immediately put it up for sale. Today I regret it. How can you beat a 19 oz five shot .44 Special for concealed carry? So what if the pin would creep out. It wouldn't creep out in the number of shots it would take to settle a life or death situation. A 'smith probably could have fixed it too. Stupid me!

 

[jad0110]

If she likes 44 Special, I'd have to say one of the coolest 44 Special revolvers I've seen is the S&W Model 24 N Frame. An employee at a local range has one that he wears on his hip; it is one sweet gun. I think they are fairly rare, but keep your eyes open, you may well stumble upon one. I'm not sure how much they weigh, maybe someone else can comment.

Here's an example at auction arms.com:

No, I indicated that she could handle the more powerful guns in an N-Frame. I was just responding to a reflexive dismissal of the .38 Special as inadequate. This is too common a notion, and it needs dispelling. Once informed, she can pick what she likes, but it should be an informed decision, not one based on the myth of the ineffectiveness of the .38 Special. It would not have been the standard police round for 60 years or more if it was ineffective on human attackers. Even, as I said, the old lead round nose was effective on anyone not hopped up on drugs. As long as you are not fighting crazed Moros in the Philippines, or drugged out weirdoes, the old led round nose would even be fine, but we have much better than that nowadays in .38 Special. That was my only point. Not trying to talk anyone into anything.

RH,

Great post, couldn't agree more. Other than 22LR, the 38 Special seems to be one of the most underestimated cartridges around. I feel well armed with either the FBI load in my 686 or Speer GDs in my 642. Maybe one day I'll pick up some 158 grain Buffalo Bores for my 686, I hear they can get up to around 1100 fps in a 4" barrel! Not too shabby for the old 38!

 

[Hook686]

Yesterday 11:39 AM

Gewehr98 wrote:

Gentlemen, we've heard from the husband that she prefers .44 Special.

not exactly true ... what was stated was,

She likes 38s out of the 640 but the frame is two small for her hands, likes 44 spls out of the 629 but 54.5 oz. is too heavy, and hates the USP all together. I’ve concluded that a medium to large frame four-inch revolver (~40 oz.) would be just about right. She like’s the size and weight of a 40 oz. 686 she saw in a store

If you want to reinforce the "little lady needs...", I'd think suggesting she go try a 4" 686 might be the key.

 

[Gewehr98]

You quote that.

I'll quote this:

If we get a 686 she will only shoot 38s and she is just as comfortable shooting 44 spls which are a much more effective defense round. She is really more afraid of the muzzle blast than the recoil: hence not liking long guns. I have been assisting her shopping and shooting for months now and am pretty sure that either ~40 oz. 38 or 44 spl would be just fine for her. I originally thought my 640 would be perfect but I didn’t anticipate her long fingers. I was pleasantly surprised about her comfort shooting 44 spls and she actually preferred them.

"Actually preferred them".

But I don't have "686" anywhere in my username, so I'll let it drop before anybody thinks I'm pushing an agenda of some sorts.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

There is no way she could prefer the recoil of a .44 Special over that of a .38 Special out of equally heavy revolvers. If she can handle .44 Special from a 40 oz gun, then she can equally well handle a .38 Special out of a 31 oz gun. That said, if she just likes the big N-Frames, I would recommend she get the .45 ACP. Lots of cheap practice ammo available, speed loading is a synch using full moon clips, and it's at least as effective as a .44 Special, with no greater recoil. Smith & Wesson is currently offering a real beauty in this config, with fixed sights, which is what you want in a self defense weapon. It's called the Model 1950 Thunder Ranch Revolver. Here's a picture of mine.

 

[orionengnr]

pm sent

 

[joneb]

I found that my HKS speed loaders that worked well for the 431, did not for the 696. It seems HKS made the CA44 for the Bulldog and it had enough slop for the 431 but not the 696

My apologies,
The HKS CA44 will work in my S&W 696 but it takes some jiggling to get the cartridges started. Once they're in, the rnds are fanned out and do not drop cleanly into the cylinder .
It's most likely user error , but I never have any luck with the "One Size Fits All" stuff. I find the .38/.357 HKS speed loaders to be more specific and they work well.

 

[Stainz]

What is a 431?

In S&W jargon, it's an external hammer blued cylinder/barrel six shot .32 H&RM snubby Airweight.

Stainz

 

[Arcticfox]

good choice going with the .44!

696 is my fav. Also consider the 624, which is a dedicated .44 special.

Taurus makes a tracker in .44, but not as smooth as a smith.

Smith is expensive, but it is an investment.

 

[joneb]

What is a 431?

I once had Taurus mod 431 2 1/2" round butt 5 shot .44spl

I think the 431's were fixed sight models , and the 441's had a adjustable rear sight. Or the 431 was blue and the 441 was SS