.45 acp self defense ammo of choice for full size gun?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by AcceptableUserName, Sep 16, 2009.

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  1. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    Only one criticism to anything said above: Black Talons are hype. They were re-packaged as Rangers, and I could care less if cops don't like them. ALL bullets leave sharp jacket fragments. They seem to be keeping value as novelty rounds, but the ones the guy above has must be pretty old by now and I wouldn't trust them to carry anyway.

    REAL WORLD, I think you will find very little difference between premium JHP rounds, or even stuff like WWB JHP. Like they said, the very worst thing that can happen is that one might fail to expand, and you will be left with.....a 230 gr hardball bullet. Not exactly a bad thing.

    Having said that, I think that you should fire the best, biggest, heaviest round from the longest barrel you can carry. (I only carry full-size autos.) I recently switched from Federal hydra-shoks to HSTs. The suckers consistently expand to almost one inch, and rarely separate from the jacket. While the real-world differences in performance might be small, I think that as pistols are inferior weapons in general, you should give yourself every advantage, even if it's slight. It adds up.
     
  2. purebred

    purebred Member

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    Ok there's another thread here called "can postings be used against us" would this be one of them?
     
  3. rbernie
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    rbernie Contributing Member

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    The notion in the other thread is that chest-pounding statements that advocate illegal or immoral activities may be used against you in civil/criminal cases, should you ever be involved in a SD situation. I cannot see why that would impact this specific discussion at all - nobody is advocating illegal or immoral activities here. If using effective HPs was an issue, then why do the police use them? ;)

    I tend to use the WWB Personal Protection 230gr HPs, simply because I can get them for a lot less than most of the 'premium' fodder. I believe that regular practice (even if only a couple of magazines per range session) with the carry gun and carry ammo is really important (and more important than finding and carrying 'the magic bullet'). I just can't afford to burn through $50/week in carry ammo.

    The newer bonded pills seem to be the cat's meow, but I am not convinced that they offer more benefit than regular practice with less expensive carry ammo.
     
  4. foghornl

    foghornl Member

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    Rem 230-Gr "Golden Sabre". Bought several hundred of them way back yonder, still have about 200 left.
     
  5. SHAGGY101

    SHAGGY101 Member

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    extreme shock epr. It has amazing ballistics and expansion with 100% energy transfer.
     
  6. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    ^^.....you're serious, aren't you?
     
  7. rbernie
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    rbernie Contributing Member

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    Shaggy - do a quick Google search of this site and others (e.g. The Firing Line) for 'Extreme Shock' and read all of the threads. The take-away will very quickly reveal itself to be that anything made by ExtremeShock is pretty much guaranteed to be crap and the notion of 'energy transfer' is pretty much marketingspeak and meaningless.

    If nothing else, I always recommend to folk that they look at the SD ammo that's in use by major LE agencies. After all, these agencies likely conducted some form of critical review of the options before settling on a duty load. You could do a lot worse than simply adopt their load.

    By the way - the FBI has published for many years a test protocol for evaluating defense ammo, and anyone that pimps out ammo without being able to show test data that aligns with the FBI protocol is pretty much just blowing smoke...
     
  8. amd6547

    amd6547 Member

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    I am perfectly satisfied with 230gn FMJ, even though my Ballester Molina has fed every JHP I have tried.
     
  9. sigman

    sigman Member

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    Stay away from expensive " exotic hype " ammo !

    Defender/lawyers that may represent the perp./intruder that you have shot with " exotic " ammo. will argue that you are a diabolical and evil psycho for useing this in your pistol !! :evil:
    Then YOU will become the bad guy,and NOT the perp. !!
    Federal Hyra Shocks do expand to about an inch in diameter.
    But the Gold Dots expand reliably all the time,where the H.S.'s do not expand fully if the Hollow Point nose becomes cloged with stuff like clothing and stuff.
    FMJ 230 .45 alone by itself is man stopper even if dosen't expand like a Hollow Point !! :D
     
  10. ScareyH22A

    ScareyH22A Member

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    I think A LOT of people think that Federal HST's are Hydra-Shok. They're not.
     
  11. rbernie
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    rbernie Contributing Member

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    Do you have any examples of this to share?
     
  12. rbohm

    rbohm Member

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    read massad ayoobs column in guns and ammo(i think). he often tells of over zealous prosecutors/plantiffs lawyers who go after a guy who used something other than what the local police use in their weapons. and if you hand load, you are really going to be demonized. this is how the black talons got banned from civilian use. they got demonized by over zealous anti gun nuts/lawyers, and that got carried over into the halls of congress.

    mr ayoob is an expert witness in many cases where the use of a firearm is called into question.
     
  13. rbohm

    rbohm Member

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    by the way, another reliable round you can use for self defense is the glaser safety slug. it is a frangible round, that creates a healthy shock to the body when it enters and fragments. the other nice thing about that round is that is doesnt penetrate dry wall like a standard 230 grain ball round will.
     
  14. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    I will never hang my life on frangible ammo. Black Talons were not banned by anyone. Ayoob says many things MAY be used against you if the prosecution has a weak case. He doesn't say you will REALLY be demonized.
     
  15. Schleprok62

    Schleprok62 Member

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    That's what I thought.

    I read that Winchester voluntarily took them off the market because news media made an overly big stink about them being referred to as "cop killers" and the medical professionals were complaining about getting cut trying to find/remove them because of the "talon"

    From Wikipedia:
    "The ammunition was targeted by those opposed to handguns[5][6] and eventually the Talons became known by the moniker "cop-killer" bullets.[7] The identifying characteristic of the Black Talon ammunition was the black coating on the bullets themselves. There were false rumors that the bullets were armor piercing and could penetrate the Kevlar vests worn by police officers.[8][9] To further the controversy, some medical personnel claimed that the sharp barb like tips could potentially cause tears in the surgical gloves and hands of the medical workers, exposing them to greater risk of infection,[1] however there are no documented reports of this actually happening.[10]

    The ammunition was used by the gunman of the 1993 Long Island Railroad mass murder. In 1996 a lawsuit was subsequently filed by one of the victim's family members (McCarthy v. Sturm, Ruger and Co., Inc., 916 F.Supp. 366 (S.D.N.Y., 1996)) claiming that Olin Corp. should be liable for the shooting spree based on the design, manufacture, marketing, and sale of Black Talon ammunition. The claims against Olin were dismissed because it was held that the bullets were not defectively designed.[11]

    Winchester bowed to pressure and in 1993 removed the ammunition from public sale for a time,[12] and eventually law enforcement also bowed to the pressure, but at no time was it, nor is it presently, illegal to possess the Black Talon ammunition."

    ---


    Like I said, I hope I NEVER have to use them...



    Cheers..
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2009
  16. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    And they repackaged it as the Ranger and put it BACK on the shelves anyway.
     
  17. AcceptableUserName

    AcceptableUserName member

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    the Gold Dots are sounding pretty good so far...
     
  18. KBintheSLC

    KBintheSLC Member

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    Shaggy works for these guys. Only seen a few posts of yours, but all have been shameless name droppings.
     
  19. DeepSouth
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    DeepSouth Contributing Member

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    I use the Gold Dot's in all my .45's.

    Not all Golden Saber's are bonded, but they all perform pretty good. They also tend to feed better when other HP's have trouble in my experience.
     
  20. KyJim

    KyJim Member

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    First, "regular" old-fashioned hollow points are not as good as the modern hollow points. They either don't expand reliably in the lower velocities of a .45 acp or, if pushed to higher velocities, tend to fragment and fail to penetrate.

    My "go to" hollow point rounds are Gold Dots with Golden Sabers a close second. Gold Dots expand reliably in practically every caliber and configuration. It takes a lot of worry out of using them. The Golden Sabers are close. They will also feed very well in my .45s.

    Hydra Shoks do not always penetrate to ideal depths in .45 acp but they are still decent rounds. I use them in one of my 1911s because it really likes them.

    Glaser Safety Slugs are a novelty round and do not penetrate nearly enough.

    Whatever round you choose, you need to shoot enough through your gun to make sure they feed reliably. That's one reason to go with the Golden Saber -- they probably feed better than most hollow points so you won't be wasting your ammo and money when testing.
     
  21. boxingRef_Rick

    boxingRef_Rick Member

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    Corbon XDP ...

    I don't think I saw anybody mention the Corbon XDP in 45.

    http://www.dakotaammo.net/products/corbon/dpx.htm

    A great load, I carry it in everything I own!

    "Nuff said, Stay safe!"

    Rick.
     
  22. Quoheleth

    Quoheleth Member

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    Winchester Supreme PDX1

    Supposed to be good stuff. Cycles & shoots well out of my RI Compact. If I could find the Winchester USA 230 JHP, I would buy & use it, though. A 50-round box of that costs as much or less than one box of 20 of the PDX.

    Q
     
  23. Water-Man

    Water-Man Member

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    Federal 230gr. HST or Speer Gold Dot 230gr.
     
  24. DeadLiver

    DeadLiver Member

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    I use standard pressure Remington Golden Sabers. Mostly because thye have a good reputation and they come in boxes of 25. That gives me 8 per mag and one in the chamber, no need to have partial boxes of sd ammo laying around. I try to cycle them through about once every month or two, and at $23.00 a box, it's not bad.
     
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