45 Auto Reload Issues

[Echocrewchief]

Preface: New to the forums and I've done a ton of reading here and would like to start by saying thank you to all of the posters. I've learned A LOT.

I'm new to reloading and started with 9mm and have been rather successful (non-competitive target) with the cartridges that I've made so far. Recently the other dies that I've ordered have come in - specifically the 45 auto dies. Made up a bunch of rounds and had some issues at the range.

None of them failed to fire, but there were a number of fail to feed - about 2 in 10. I did not experience any stove pipes and just about every round that failed to feed, I chambered it as the first round, and it fed and fired. NOTE - I did have a box of Winchester White Box and all of the rounds fed and fired as expected.

Equipment: Hornady LnL single stage press, with Hornady dies.

Specifics: I kept 2 of each type of round that failed to feed for further inspection back at the bench.

1. Xtreme RN-CP 230gr. / COL 1.244" / Crimp .472" / 4.4gr Titegroup
2. Xtreme RN-CP 230gr. / COL 1.252" / Crimp .472" / 4.4gr Titegroup
3. HSM RN-CP 230gr. / COL 1.241" / Crimp .472" / 4.4gr Titegroup
4. HSM RN-CP 230gr. / COL 1.228" / Crimp .472" / 4.4gr Titegroup
5. Hornady HP-FMJ XTP 185gr. / COL 1.211" / Crimp .472" / 5.8gr Titegroup
6. Hornady HP-FMJ XTP 185gr. / COL 1.210" / Crimp .473" / 5.8gr Titegroup

Case: RWS - brand new (didn't know about SPP and LPP at the time of purchase - no wonder it was a deal)
Primer: CCI SPP
Weapon: Ruger SR 1911
Mags: 2 that came with the gun and 2 that I purchased and used without issue with factory ammo
Outside Air Temp: 31F
*No chronograph at the time, but wife just bought one for me so I'll have more data later.

Measuring the remaining rounds I didn't shoot...

Average COL for the HSM - 1.247"
Average COL for the Xtreme - 1.253"
Average COL for the XTP - 1.245"

The only other thing to note was some of the fired brass (don't know from which load) had some staining on it - like powder burn on the side. My research into this seemed to indicate a possible light load and the case didn't seal properly in the chamber.

So the question, after this wall of text, is... are the COL at issue here? Did I seat some bullets too far? I also understand that some powders are temperature sensitive, but haven't read that Titegroup is one of them.

Thank you in advance for any replies!

 

[Rule3]

I think the first thing to do is eliminate some of the information and concentrate on one bullet. Too confusing with different bullets and weights

Lets take the Hornady 185 gr as there is published dat for that.

The manual shows a COL of 1.225. Your powder charge of 5.8 of TG is fine (in the middle)

So did these rounds fail to chamber and jam??

Did you do the "plunk" tes to see if the drop in the barrel and fall out?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506678

Work on one bullet at a time as the COL will vary a bit.

#5 and #6 say the COL is 1.211, 1210 but then you say the average for that bullet is 1.245?? So I am confused on that?

 

[Echocrewchief]

Sorry for the confusion. I made 100 rounds of each initially, and every one of them were plunk tested in the barrel - no issues.

To go back to the Hornady rounds - there were intermittent occasions of failure to chamber. After clearing the round, I reinserted it into the magazine as the first round, chambered it and it fired. After this happened a few times, I saved two of the rounds.

Inserting the Hornady rounds into the barrel, they are just slightly under flush. Similar to the second example in the first illustration of the thread you linked. Thank you for the link by the way.

In regards to your last question... #5 & #6 were two rounds that I saved from the range. The average came from measuring four of the 50+ rounds that were not fired. Variances were .003 from what I measured in the box - not sure how those two varied more, aside from the obvious.

 

[Blue68f100]

I have seen in the past is that a load too light will cause feed problems. The slide not going back far enough to gain enough energy to feed the round. Kind of like sling shot vs slide release. I find some of my guns need to be over 1/2 charge to get enough energy to make the gun run right with out changing springs.

 

[Rule3]

If it was me. I would try just the Hornady 185 (to simplify things) use your current charge of 5.8 TG but seat them to the tested 1.225.

Try a few of those and see. Your options for most 1911 are:

COL
Powder Charge
Magazine

I have the same gun and use Bullseye, it shoots anything I have put into it. The fact that is functions on Win WB (which is not a real power house)
You mentioned that the round fired on the second try indicates to me a high primer or primer not seated correctly. So that is another variable.

I still lean towards COL.

 

[Conservidave]

I would run the 230grn Rn at least 1.260 to 1.270. My SR1911 is finiky when it comes to ammo and i've found that loading bullets as long as i can helps. Just be sure to plunk test when loading close to max length.

Hope this helps

 

[2bfree]

That's odd. my SR1911 shoots everything I have loaded, so far from 1.2 to 1.6. My standard load now i1s 1.240

 

[Swampman]

Try crimping a couple rounds at .470 and see if they still headspace correctly. If so, load up a box or two and see how they do.

Just remember to only change one variable at a time on any one load while you're sorting out your problem.

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

A plunk test is not the end all to problems when trying to find a feeding solution especially in a 1911. Plunk testing serves three purposes for me. One it determines the head spacing is good by using a proper length casing once determined it is good there is no reason to check it again and the other two purposes remain as the only reason. Two insures the bullet is not pushing into the chamber and altering pressure. Finally it Helps to insure feeding of reload ammo, but doesn't guarantee it. Just because a round feeds smoothly straight in and out of he chamber doesn't mean it will when coming up the ramp and into the chamber when starting at an angle.

Which brings me to these notes:

HP bullets can stick on the top of the chamber when a round nose wont.
Even a conical bullet has different contact points and can cause feeding issues with a finicky gun.

What I have experienced is a 1911 feeding only round nose in one gun when an identical make and model ate everything. In that case the magazine was out of spec a little causing the bullet to nose up a little too much. The round nose by design compensated enough and finished feeding when others wouldn't. Switching the two magazines was like switching guns causing FTF in the good working gun and alleviating the issues in the finicky gun. Problem solved.

The majority of feeding issues in a semi auto is attributed to the magazine, especially in a 1911. I would check the magazine.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

NOTE - I did have a box of Winchester White Box and all of the rounds fed and fired as expected.

What is the COAL of those Winchester rounds?
I also think playing around with the COAL will solve the problem.
It sounds like you are doing everything correctly.
Welcome to the forum...

 

[savanahsdad]

are you de-burring the outside of your cases ? if you have a burr or even a sharp edge on your case mouth it will not feed right every time , I just had the same thing with 9mm in my Uzi , yet the rounds worked fine in my P89 , my S&W1911 will eat everything I feed it , I'm using the Lee 4 die set with the FCD ,

what is the OD of your loaded rounds ? have you checked the OD from your handloads to your factory rounds ? ,,

anyway , I'm thinking case not bullet is your problem ,

 

[RealGun]

Longer COL, more crimp, something like 1.265 and .470 respectively. This should be close to factory rounds.

You can redo the failures by using an inertial bullet puller and just a light tap to edge the bullet forward. Then run through new seating depth and crimp settings.

p.s. don't get the idea that .45 ACP cases need to be trimmed like rifle brass. If that concerned, you should be using new brass, maybe for a match or something.

 

[Pentrite]

I just finished some 45acp with xtreme 185g FP bullets. On my first plunk test they didnt seat that great in my G36. The COL is a bit short for this load at 1.135 (8.1Grs of Longshot). I did notice that my crip was just a touch larger than it should have been and was larger than my factory rounds. Adjusted the crimp down to 0.470 and they plunk/chamber great now. Crimp it down a touch more and give it a shot!

 

[Echocrewchief]

I would run the 230grn Rn at least 1.260 to 1.270.

At this suggestion I made several dummy rounds at 1.260 and they cycled through. Tested all magazines (all of which are made by Ruger).

The crimp has been an issue for me - I can't seem to get better than .471/.472 depending on the case (although they are all new and the same). When trying to get the crimp down to .470, I end up with a bulge in the case. Hopefully the following images will come through...





Then I started to adjust the crimp and I couldn't get to .470 and in fact, the bulge prevented the round from plunking in the chamber.



Pulled the bullet to see what the crimp was on it...

 

[Echocrewchief]

Well it doesn't look like I posted the images properly... I'll work on that later.

Thank you everyone for your replies and the welcome to the forum. To respond to the other questions...

What is the COAL of those Winchester rounds?

Shortest was measured at 1.255 and the longest at 1.269. Crimp was at .469 and .470.

are you de-burring the outside of your cases ?

Initially I wasn't, but the edge of the case mouth seemed rough - like new metal, so I started to de-burr, but it didn't make a difference with the crimp. I will however continue to de-burr these new cases.

what is the OD of your loaded rounds ? have you checked the OD from your handloads to your factory rounds ?

The rounds I made were .472 at the case mouth, .471 at the bottom of the bullet seat and .469 below that. Aside from the crimp, the measurements were consistent with the WWB rounds.

Unfortunately I've got to run. I'll try to get the images to work when I get back. Again - can't say thank you enough to all the replies! Cheers

Note: Dies are Hornady 45 AUTO/AR/Win, Series II No. 546554

 

[Rule3]

On your picture with the barrel, does the round fall out when you turn it over? If so, then it's good.

As mentioned before you may have 2 different issues. If the round chambered and did not go bang, and then did so on a second strike then it's a high primer issue.

 

[RealGun]

.470 is not a magic number but should be twice the case mouth thickness plus the bullet diameter. If you can't get down to that number, check the case, but I suspect you will need to go to a separate crimp operation. The bulging is known to occur when crimping, while the ram is still moving.

 

[Conservidave]

.471 crimp has always worked for me. uncrimed cases run around .473-.474 so just a light crimp is all it takes to achieve the .471 in a separate step.

 

[Echocrewchief]

After some more research I think I've found the problem with the crimp - the die set that I have isn't the one with a taper crimp - didn't realize there was a difference when I ordered them. Found an old THR thread from 2011 that went into great detail on the topic.

Funny, my 9mm die set doesn't have the taper crimp die either and I've successfully loaded over a few thousand of that caliber.

Going forward, I've ordered the taper crimp die for both calibers and that should help and just make it easier. I believe the OAL is the main issue for my 45 woes. I'm going to try and reseat the remaining rounds I have to 1.265 +/- .005 (thanks for that advice RealGun), crimp enough to take the bell out and plunk test.

I'll post a range report when this snow clears away.

 

[witchhunter]

Your die is not a taper crimp die? Most dies for auto calibers are. What brand is it? My advice is to pick one bullet and load for it, you might have to use a different powder or primer due to availability. But stick with one bullet. If you need to load two separate bullets, buy another seater die and leave em adjusted. Solves a lot of problems. Good Luck.

 

[Echocrewchief]

Your die is not a taper crimp die? Most dies for auto calibers are. What brand is it?

Unfortunately it is not. Hornady gives you two options on the 45 AUTO die and I picked the one that doesn't taper when seating the bullet. I've since purchased the taper dies for my set.

 

[asdtexas]

Pretty sure it's your crimp. 0.468 to 0.470 works for me. I had the same problem and this was the fix. Bill Wilson from Wilson combat and Patrick Sweeney G&A both suggest 0.468 FYIq

 

[Echocrewchief]

Range Report / Update

Just got back from being able to test the modifications to the rounds I made. I know a lot of folks said to stay with one bullet, but I continued to work on all three (actually two - one is the Hornady XTP (free with the press) and the others (HSM & Xtreme) are essentially the same - RN, copper plated).

Side note - it was 55 degrees versus the 31 degrees from the original range session.

I reseated most of the rounds (RN-CP) at 1.260" and taper crimped half of them and left the other half alone. I also took a sampling of the rounds made at the original COL of 1.245" and taper crimped them. All of them fed and fired with an average velocity of 722 FPS.

The issues with this round seemed to be twofold - the taper crimp and the COL


With the Hornady rounds, I reseated to 1.225" and some at 1.230". All but 10 rounds were taper crimped. All of these round, with the exception of the "non-taper" crimped rounds, fed and fired - average velocity was above published data at 936 FPS. The first "non-taper" crimped round failed to chamber and I ended that portion of the test.

The issue with this round was the lack of a sufficient taper crimp

Very excited, and I can't say thanks enough to the members that offered suggestions. I've got a solid cartridge that will feed properly and now I can start the fine tuning process. Lots more data but I'll keep this post as short as possible.

/Salute

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Very excited, and I can't say thanks enough to the members that offered suggestions.

I remember feeling the same way myself a few times. Glad your up and running. Have fun and be safe.

 

[gamestalker]

Man this brings back some old memories, except I didn't have the internet to help me learn the process, all books, and the occasional mentor.

FYI, and this is controversial, when I'm seating in an AL handgun cartridge using jacketed bullets, I just chamfer the inside of the mouth enough to allow for a straight start. The bullet will set up straight on the case mouth, and seat smoothly, then I seat without any crimp at all. This eliminates any need for belling, and pretty much delivers the maximum degree of neck tension obtainable, and the diameter of the finished case mouth is only as large as what the bullet pushed it out too.

Being that you are new to this hobby, I should probably not be suggesting such methods as this, but maybe try it once and see what you think?

GS