Buck Snort
Member
Any way you look at it, none of us want to be there when a slug from either gun gets where its going!!
45 colt vs 44 spcl
- Thread starter hrubison
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I think comparing the 45 ACP or AR to the 44 Special is more realistic as all were designed as smokeless powder cartridges. The venerable 45 Colt come on the scene in 1873, along with the equally venerable Colt SAA. It was the largest cartridge that would fit in the SAA's cylinder. As such it was the premium pistol cartridge of the era and stayed that way well into the early smokeless days.
I have loaded the 45 Colt to original specifications, i.e. balloon-head cases, 255g bullet of 20-1 alloy sized to .454" and finally 40g of FFg black powder. From a 7.5" SAA it chronographed at an average 914 fps. From a 5.5" SAA it averaged 887 fps and from the 4.75" version 864 fps. That level of handgun performance wasn't matched until the 357 Magnum in 1935.
The 44 Special, descendent of the 44 Russian, was considered an exceptionally accurate round from the start. Its parent handgun, the beautiful Triple Lock or more properly the 1st Model 44 Hand Ejector, was the first N-framed S&W and led to all the descendents of that frame size, including the Registered Magnum 357 and eventually the 44 Magnum.
I don't think there is a "better" choice here. Both have a historical roll in the history of handguns in the USA. Both are still popular with serious handgunners and particularly with handloaders. Personally I think the 45 Colt's real role is in the SAA, while the 44 Special shines in the N-frame Smith. Pick the revolver you perfer and shoot the cartridge that that gun was designed around. Nothing better in the revolver world.
Dave
I have loaded the 45 Colt to original specifications, i.e. balloon-head cases, 255g bullet of 20-1 alloy sized to .454" and finally 40g of FFg black powder. From a 7.5" SAA it chronographed at an average 914 fps. From a 5.5" SAA it averaged 887 fps and from the 4.75" version 864 fps. That level of handgun performance wasn't matched until the 357 Magnum in 1935.
The 44 Special, descendent of the 44 Russian, was considered an exceptionally accurate round from the start. Its parent handgun, the beautiful Triple Lock or more properly the 1st Model 44 Hand Ejector, was the first N-framed S&W and led to all the descendents of that frame size, including the Registered Magnum 357 and eventually the 44 Magnum.
I don't think there is a "better" choice here. Both have a historical roll in the history of handguns in the USA. Both are still popular with serious handgunners and particularly with handloaders. Personally I think the 45 Colt's real role is in the SAA, while the 44 Special shines in the N-frame Smith. Pick the revolver you perfer and shoot the cartridge that that gun was designed around. Nothing better in the revolver world.
Dave
In the past 45 Colt revolvers had wider tolerances and therefore were less accurate if you were not slugging the bores and specifically loading bullets for the difference in cylinder and barrel diameters.
44 Spl revolvers did not have this problem to the degree 45 Colt revolvers did.
With modern manufacturing, this problem is more a thing of the past.
I prefer the 44 Spl, more efficient design, does everything I need it to do in platforms that are easier to carry.
44 Spl revolvers did not have this problem to the degree 45 Colt revolvers did.
With modern manufacturing, this problem is more a thing of the past.
I prefer the 44 Spl, more efficient design, does everything I need it to do in platforms that are easier to carry.
BlindJustice
Member
I disagree with archangelcd
Elmer Keith when he started pushing the envelope with smokeless powders
chose the .44 SPecial because with the platforms back in the
20s would have been Colt SAA or S&W 2nd Model Hand EJector or
Colt New Service and the cylinder wall thicckness between the outer
cylinder wall as well as between the cylinders was greater thus stronger
in the .44 SPecial vs the 45 Colt. This early work as well as the
development of the stronger webbing at the base of the .357 Magnum
is all prior work and knowledge that the .454 Casull had as a basis for
development. The .454 Casull was not ground breaking just a different
bore size and case with the basic development done by others.
Today, there are few choices for .44 SPecial platforms - unless you're
fireing it in a .44 Magnum - The 45 Colt has many platforms as well with
it;s mililtaary successor the .45 ACP the .45 Colt has a much wider range
of bullet weight and type selection.
I've read the .45 "+P" loads from Buffalo Bore/DOuble Tap et al. run near
or just under 30K and even then you could have case separation in a lever gun. I have an 1894 Marlin 20" Bbl. in .45 Colt and will pair it with a
Ruger Blackhawk instead of a S&W Model 25-5 Mountain Gun because I wouldn't want to risk mixing regular and "+P" ( although there is no +P
standard from SAAMI.)
Another cartridge which should be in this discussion which was introduced 12 or so years after the .44 SPecial in 1908 is the .45 Auto Rim. A much more efficient cartridge than the black powder era .45 COlt of 1873 which made the transition to the smokeless era. The .45 Auto Rim is rated in the
same neighborhood 14,000/16,000 CUP by SAAMI yet it has never been chambered for any of the weaker Single action revolvers but the large frame S&W and New Service Colts. I've heard of some getting good velocity using
12.5-12.0 gr. of 2400 in .45 AUto Rim with 255 gr. hardcast SWC Keith style bullets.
I've got the S&W 625 .45 ACP/ .45 Auto RIm 5" Bbl. I just wish I could
have an option of an 1894 Marlin in the same properly chambered but it would take a re-barrel job.
Back to .45 COlt and .44 SPecial - mor loads regular and heavy for the
45 COlt not many for the 44 SPecial and very few that push the envelope.
Randall
Elmer Keith when he started pushing the envelope with smokeless powders
chose the .44 SPecial because with the platforms back in the
20s would have been Colt SAA or S&W 2nd Model Hand EJector or
Colt New Service and the cylinder wall thicckness between the outer
cylinder wall as well as between the cylinders was greater thus stronger
in the .44 SPecial vs the 45 Colt. This early work as well as the
development of the stronger webbing at the base of the .357 Magnum
is all prior work and knowledge that the .454 Casull had as a basis for
development. The .454 Casull was not ground breaking just a different
bore size and case with the basic development done by others.
Today, there are few choices for .44 SPecial platforms - unless you're
fireing it in a .44 Magnum - The 45 Colt has many platforms as well with
it;s mililtaary successor the .45 ACP the .45 Colt has a much wider range
of bullet weight and type selection.
I've read the .45 "+P" loads from Buffalo Bore/DOuble Tap et al. run near
or just under 30K and even then you could have case separation in a lever gun. I have an 1894 Marlin 20" Bbl. in .45 Colt and will pair it with a
Ruger Blackhawk instead of a S&W Model 25-5 Mountain Gun because I wouldn't want to risk mixing regular and "+P" ( although there is no +P
standard from SAAMI.)
Another cartridge which should be in this discussion which was introduced 12 or so years after the .44 SPecial in 1908 is the .45 Auto Rim. A much more efficient cartridge than the black powder era .45 COlt of 1873 which made the transition to the smokeless era. The .45 Auto Rim is rated in the
same neighborhood 14,000/16,000 CUP by SAAMI yet it has never been chambered for any of the weaker Single action revolvers but the large frame S&W and New Service Colts. I've heard of some getting good velocity using
12.5-12.0 gr. of 2400 in .45 AUto Rim with 255 gr. hardcast SWC Keith style bullets.
I've got the S&W 625 .45 ACP/ .45 Auto RIm 5" Bbl. I just wish I could
have an option of an 1894 Marlin in the same properly chambered but it would take a re-barrel job.
Back to .45 COlt and .44 SPecial - mor loads regular and heavy for the
45 COlt not many for the 44 SPecial and very few that push the envelope.
Randall
BlindJustice
Member
Hey DOn't shoot the messenger - this is just what
Buffalo Bore is comfy with
Buffalo Bore offerings
45 Colt Standard loads
255 gr. HC FN @ 1000 FPS
200 gr. JHP @ 1,100 FPS
45 Colt l Heavy loads +P
300 gr. JFN @ 1200 FPS
280 gr. JHP @ 1,450 FPS
44 Special Standard loads
255 gr. HC FN @ 1000 FPS
180 gr. JHP @ 1,100 FPS
44 Special Heavy loads +P
255 gr. JFN @ 1000 FPS
180 gr. JHP @ 1,150 FPS
45 Auto RIm Standard PRessure loads 4" Bbl.
the description sez loaded to .45 ACP pressure
and ok in even the M1917 revolvers
255 gr. HC FN @ 850 FPS
200 gr. JHP @ 1,000 FPS
45 AUto RIm Heavy +P Loads
255 gr. HC FN @ 1,000 FPS
200 gr. JHP @ 1,200 FPS
*****
45 ACP Heavy +P Loads
230 gr. JHP @ 9500 FPS
200 gr. JHP @ 1,050
185 gr. JHP @ 1,150 FPS
and since i 45 ACP / auto rim and the below all chambers in a 625 S&W
45 Super Heavy loads
255 gr HC FN # 1,075 fps
230 gr. JHP @ 1,1000 FPS
230 gr JHP @ 1,200 FPS
185 gr. JHP @ 1,300 FPS
Buffalo Bore is comfy with
Buffalo Bore offerings
45 Colt Standard loads
255 gr. HC FN @ 1000 FPS
200 gr. JHP @ 1,100 FPS
45 Colt l Heavy loads +P
300 gr. JFN @ 1200 FPS
280 gr. JHP @ 1,450 FPS
44 Special Standard loads
255 gr. HC FN @ 1000 FPS
180 gr. JHP @ 1,100 FPS
44 Special Heavy loads +P
255 gr. JFN @ 1000 FPS
180 gr. JHP @ 1,150 FPS
45 Auto RIm Standard PRessure loads 4" Bbl.
the description sez loaded to .45 ACP pressure
and ok in even the M1917 revolvers
255 gr. HC FN @ 850 FPS
200 gr. JHP @ 1,000 FPS
45 AUto RIm Heavy +P Loads
255 gr. HC FN @ 1,000 FPS
200 gr. JHP @ 1,200 FPS
*****
45 ACP Heavy +P Loads
230 gr. JHP @ 9500 FPS
200 gr. JHP @ 1,050
185 gr. JHP @ 1,150 FPS
and since i 45 ACP / auto rim and the below all chambers in a 625 S&W
45 Super Heavy loads
255 gr HC FN # 1,075 fps
230 gr. JHP @ 1,1000 FPS
230 gr JHP @ 1,200 FPS
185 gr. JHP @ 1,300 FPS
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
As has always been true, neither cartridge can reach its full potential without handloading.
BlindJustice,
Elmer went to the 44 Special as his test platform after blowing up several SAA in 45 long Colt. He wrote about one such episode in one of his first articles for the American Rifleman. He was using a 300 grain 45-90 bullet over a full case of black powder. The topstrap and top 3 chambers of the cylinder disappeared!
Elmer went to the 44 Special as his test platform after blowing up several SAA in 45 long Colt. He wrote about one such episode in one of his first articles for the American Rifleman. He was using a 300 grain 45-90 bullet over a full case of black powder. The topstrap and top 3 chambers of the cylinder disappeared!
BlindJustice
Member
Thanks Strawhat, it's been a long time since I've read Elmer.
Several posts on this llist saying the .44 SPecial unlike the .45 COlt
was designed for smokeless powder. Is this because it was introduced in
1908 - if that's so why is it the .38 Special which began life as a black
powder cartrdige pre 1900 approx. 1898 but within 2 years was changed to
have a smokeless charge, and the .44 SPecial are within .005 O.A.L>: ? I would say it's not because the 44 Special was 'designed' for smokeless powder but the O.A.L was dictated by the existing length in revolver cylinder development as well as the standard rull of thumb by cartrdige/weapon
manufacturers of making cartridges longer so the newer more powerful
cartridges could not be chambered in older guns chambered for less powerfull cases.
The line of American cartridges specifically designed from the ground up for smokeless powder is tied into the development of semi-atuos by
John Browning i.e 32 ACP, 38 ACP and 45 ACP
R-
,
Several posts on this llist saying the .44 SPecial unlike the .45 COlt
was designed for smokeless powder. Is this because it was introduced in
1908 - if that's so why is it the .38 Special which began life as a black
powder cartrdige pre 1900 approx. 1898 but within 2 years was changed to
have a smokeless charge, and the .44 SPecial are within .005 O.A.L>: ? I would say it's not because the 44 Special was 'designed' for smokeless powder but the O.A.L was dictated by the existing length in revolver cylinder development as well as the standard rull of thumb by cartrdige/weapon
manufacturers of making cartridges longer so the newer more powerful
cartridges could not be chambered in older guns chambered for less powerfull cases.
The line of American cartridges specifically designed from the ground up for smokeless powder is tied into the development of semi-atuos by
John Browning i.e 32 ACP, 38 ACP and 45 ACP
R-
,
Deanimator
Member
Either one will do.
It's generally easier to get suitable .44 Magnum revolvers in which you can use .44 Specials, than .45 Colts.
I have a 4" S&W Model 29-2. When I make a high ride OWB for it, it'll be one of my winter carry guns. I shoot almost nothing in it except .44 Specials.
It's generally easier to get suitable .44 Magnum revolvers in which you can use .44 Specials, than .45 Colts.
I have a 4" S&W Model 29-2. When I make a high ride OWB for it, it'll be one of my winter carry guns. I shoot almost nothing in it except .44 Specials.
44 Special is my favorite. Charter bulldog 3" rides with me at the farm, one shot load, four 429421 Keiths on top of a very sensible charge of Unique. 624 4" was one of my favorite pin guns and now rests in the safe ready to go anywhere. Just a little big. 29-2, although a magnum, shoots warm 44 specials and moderate magnums just fine, thank you.
I think that the 44 has a slight edge due to slightly better sectional density/ballistic coefficients. Bullet choice is a little better for us cast-your-owns.
Stan
I think that the 44 has a slight edge due to slightly better sectional density/ballistic coefficients. Bullet choice is a little better for us cast-your-owns.
Stan
Harley Quinn
Member
I think the 44 cal is a better bullet, quite a selection for all 44 cals right on up to and including the 440 Corbon...
Revolvers, semi autos, along with the rifles that shoot them...
Regards
Revolvers, semi autos, along with the rifles that shoot them...
Regards
BlindJustice
Member
For anyone still checking this thread...
Buds Guns has this handgun on closeout
S&W MOdel 21 4" Bbl. .44 Special fixed sights
Square butt grip fraem standard wood grips Blued carbon steel
$569 <--- lot of N-frame NIB for the money imho
R-
blued
Buds Guns has this handgun on closeout
S&W MOdel 21 4" Bbl. .44 Special fixed sights
Square butt grip fraem standard wood grips Blued carbon steel
$569 <--- lot of N-frame NIB for the money imho
R-
blued
marsofold
Member
I got a Ruger 454 SRH so that I would not need to concern myself with borderline pressures shooting 255grain bullets at the 1100fps speed I reload. I prefer the largest possible caliber that is commonly carried (the Walmart ammo test), and the 45-Colt won. If 50 caliber revolver ammo was available at most Walmarts, then that'd be my gun. I can see no advantage to using smaller bullets except in a CCW gun (mine is a Colt Agent 38-special/125Grain Nyclad HPs). For those using a 44 Bulldog as a CCW gun, I agree with you 100%. 
aryfrosty
Member
Cartridge comparison
I really like the both of them. Both are tied for first place with me and the .45acp is in second.
I really like the both of them. Both are tied for first place with me and the .45acp is in second.
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