THE 45 COLT: OLD BUT STILL USEFUL?

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edwardware said:
I enjoy mine, but my only use off the range (with anti-armor Ruger-Only loads) is killing carpenter bees and hornets.

I developed a rice shot load that kills the insects, but won't harm the siding.
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I tried that here, but the neighbors called the police, used coarse salt and primer power for carpenter bees, but scared the neighbors!!
 
Everyone needs a 45 colt. Such a great cartridge. First handgun caliber i ever owned and still shoot a ton of them.
entropy said:
about the easiest cartridge to handload.
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Agreed, brass lasts quite a few loading too.

Deanimator said:
I prefer .44 Magnum/Special for its greater versatility
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Can you elaborate? I'm not being condescending it's an honest question.

CraigC- i love that unfluted bisley in the first picture.
 
I mostly shoot .44 Specials while retaining the ability to shoot hot magnums, like the 240gr. Lead SP Winchester White Box.

I can literally shoot everything from round ball .44 Russian gallery loads to the hottest .44 Magnum loads safe in an S&W Model 29.
 
paul105 said:
Yes, 5 shot, can be loaded with "Ruger Only" but OAL max is 1.600". Heavy bullet loads must be seated deeper than most load data calls for (with some exceptions) and powder charge reduced accordingly. Bottom gun 4 1/4" has over 25,000 rnds with some of those up to 340gr at chronoed 1,150 fps +-. Not for the beginning reloader if using long heavy bullets. I settled on two loads -- 280 Gr RCBS SWC at 900 fps and 320gr Lee Dual Crimp Flat Nose GC at 1,150 fps the 320 hit 1" higher at 25 yds vs the 280 from the 4 1/4" gun. IIRC the 4 1/4" weighs in at 36 oz and is a great "packin pistor" but a bit frisky with the heavy bullet load. Probably more than anyone wanted to know.
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Not at all, we love to hear about those really nice revolvers :thumbup:.

That 340 gr load is nothing to sneeze at! I bet it’ll perforate a Bison from stem to stern and still have enough oomph left over to bury itself 4” deep in a tree.

I find the Vaquero is a bit of a handful with heavy loads, those I save for the SRH in .454. That gun and grip seems to whack my hand less...

Stay safe.
 
Deanimator said:
I mostly shoot .44 Specials while retaining the ability to shoot hot magnums, like the 240gr. Lead SP Winchester White Box.

I can literally shoot everything from round ball .44 Russian gallery loads to the hottest .44 Magnum loads safe in an S&W Model 29.
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I had some Moose loads I made up for my .44 Redhawk (300 gr. XTPs @ over 1200) that my Dad wouldn't shoot through his 629. I shot some of the loads he made up for his Ruger 44 Carbine through my Redhawk. I had to file the exposed lead off to get them short enough for the cylinder. They were stuffed with Blue Dot to about 1500 fps. The Redhawk took them without a hiccup. He wouldn't have even thought of those in his 629, either.

The .45 Colt can do everything you can with your 44, and them some. The .454 Casull is longer, not because it needs it for case capacity, but for the same reason the .357 Mag is longer. So no .454's end up in an SAA. With modern guns, (S&W 25-5, Redhawk, Blackhawk, Vaquero, etc.) you can load up some over .44 Mag factory level .45 Colt handloads.

Not knocking the .44 Mag. I've owned and loaded for them, as well as .45 Colt. (though currently, I only have a SxS .45/.410 derringer) But the .45 is every bit as versatile as the .44 Mag.
 
entropy said:
The .45 Colt can do everything you can with your 44, and them some......With modern guns, (S&W 25-5, Redhawk, Blackhawk, Vaquero, etc.) you can load up some over .44 Mag factory level .45 Colt handloads.
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I don't want this to turn into a .44 vs .45 battle but not in my experience. Comparing the heaviest .45Colt "Ruger only" loads to comparable handloads in the .44Mag, they both shoot the same weight bullets but the .44 is always a bit faster.
 
CraigC said:
I don't want this to turn into a .44 vs .45 battle but not in my experience. Comparing the heaviest .45Colt "Ruger only" loads to comparable handloads in the .44Mag, they both shoot the same weight bullets but the .44 is always a bit faster.
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Nor do I. That said, there is a bit of a dilemma when making the comparison. Load them to the same pressure for a real apples to apples comparison and the larger cartridge pulls away. Again, I had loads pressure tested in .45 Colt at 36,000 psi with a 335 grain bullet and they ran over 1,400 fps from every barrel length we tested. Can’t compare top 36,000 psi .44 mag loads to 30,000 psi “Ruger only” loads if the comparison is truly level. If this is problematic, load the .44 down to Ruger only, 30,000 psi (give or take) levels and you will be able to make a comparison on a level playing field.

So this is where the comparisons all fall down. To truly and fairly compare the two, the .45 either needs to be loaded to levels that go beyond the loading manual maxes and may be unsafe in your revolvers, or the .44 needs to be loaded down below max, and well, who’s going to do that.....

And no, I don’t want to start a urininating contest, but if a real comparison is to be made, the pressures need to be in the same ballpark for a FAIR comparison. Whether that is important or not, you all need to decide.
 
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Of course the .45 runs away at the same pressure, it has more powder capacity but how does that make it a "fair" comparison? Comparing the .44Mag at industry maximum pressure and the .45Colt at "Ruger only" levels is the only way it is a fair comparison because those are the parameters they must operate in. Both guns at 100% safety margin. That is where they have always been considered comparable. If you load the .45Colt to .44Mag pressures in a box stock Ruger Blackhawk, you're eating into the safety margin. How is that "fair"? Isn't that the whole point of heavy .45Colt loads, "same performance at less pressure"? If you're gonna throw out one rule, might as well throw them all out. I always wondered why Linebaugh added this point to his article after spending so much time telling us that the .45's were 80% as strong as the .44's.

Even if we ramp them both up to 50,000psi, the .45Colt's advantage is minimal. Here we top out at a 340gr at 1400fps in the .44 and a 360gr at the same velocity in the .45Colt. Which mirrors Buffalo Bore's heavy loads in the .44 and .454. Of course, those loads should only be fired in Redhawks/Super Redhawks or custom guns with oversized or five-shot cylinders. An important distinction. The difference between them is simply not worth arguing about.

https://loaddata.com/Cartridge/44-Remington-Magnum-P-44-Magnum-P-Handloading-Data/5501

https://loaddata.com/Cartridge/45-Colt-for-Ruger-Redhawk-Revolvers-ONLY/7793
 
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So you win by cheating into the safety margin? You're going off the beaten path and for what reason? That would be fine if the guns were equal strength. Pressures cannot be the same because the guns are not the same strength. Physics dictates that, not emotion. If the .45's are only 80% the strength of the .44's, then the only way it is a "fair" comparison is if the .45 is at 80% the pressure. Which follows Linebaugh's and everybody else's line of thought. If you're going to reduce the safety margin to 80% in the .45, then would it not be fair to do so in the .44? Where does it end?

As I already said, even if BOTH cartridges are loaded to 50,000psi in appropriate guns that are roughly equal in strength, where the .45 actually takes a lead, the difference is negligible. The .45's lead at 50,000psi is basically what the .44's lead is at "Ruger only" levels. 100fps or less, not enough to argue about.

I'm talking about data. Emotion doesn't figure into it. I'm not the one changing the rules so my favorite cartridge wins. Bear in mind that I went into this whole project with the same pre-conceived notions as everyone else. That the .45 yielded "more performance at less pressure". I just found it to not be the case. Data comes from Linebaugh, Handloader and Hodgdon, I didn't have to break the rules or make up load data. It was all right there. It's all also available online for everyone to scrutinize. Nothing obscure or shady about it. I just had to put it together.
 
entropy said:
Not knocking the .44 Mag. I've owned and loaded for them, as well as .45 Colt. (though currently, I only have a SxS .45/.410 derringer) But the .45 is every bit as versatile as the .44 Mag.
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The truth is that the .44 Magnum does literally anything I need in a revolver cartridge, in particular being able to EFFICIENTLY use light loads of powders like Bullseye in shorter cases.

I only hunt every 15-20 years, so powerful heavy bullet hunting loads are mostly irrelevant to me, albeit they're possible out of a Redhawk.

For MY purposes, .45acp is much more efficient than .45 Colt. I have two .45acp revolvers, a Colt New Service and a Smith 25-2.

But again, I have nothing against .45 Colt as an end in itself. I bought the Cimarron Frontier in .45 Colt because I wanted something approximating the SAA experience at 1/4 the price. I would have gone even farther down that road, but due to an error on my part, I ordered a "pre-war" gun from Bud's rather than the "old model". It's a nice gun anyway. Maybe next year.
 
Why do we compare a cartridge designed in the 1870's to one designed in the 1950's? For all intents and purposes, the .44 Mag and .45 Colt offer similar performance and we are free to choose one or the other or both. It's all good.

I would argue that the .45 cal bullet has proven to be more versatile than the .429 cal bullet. Just compare the number of .45 cal cartridges available today compared to .429 cal. The .45 Colt evolved into the .454 Casull and .460 S&W, but how has the .44 Mag evolved? Why isn't there a .44 Mag version of the .454 Casull? I confess that I like just about everything .45 cal. I have seven 1911s chambered for .45 ACP, I have a revolver and a rifle chambered for .45 Colt and a revolver chambered for .454 Casull. I also have six revolvers and one rifle chambered for .357 Mag so I was ok with parting with my last .44 Mag revolver last year. It was a S&W 629 4" and I don't miss it. For me, .357 Mag and .45 Colt/.454 Casull do all that I need and I don't see another .44 Mag in my future. I have a bunch of .44 Mag ammo and reloading supplies that I need to get rid off but I'm in no rush to do that ... just in case.
 
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MCMXI said:
Why do we compare a cartridge designed in the 1870's to one designed in the 1950's? For all intents and purposes, the .44 Mag and .45 Colt offer similar performance and we are free to choose one or the other or both. It's all good.

I would argue that the .45 cal bullet has proven to be more versatile than the .429 cal bullet. Just compare the number of .45 cal cartridges available today compared to .429 cal. The .45 Colt evolved into the .454 Casull and .460 S&W, but how has the .44 Mag evolved? Why isn't there a .44 Mag version of the .454 Casull? I confess that I like just about everything .45 cal. I have seven 1911s chambered for .45 ACP, I have a revolver and a rifle chambered for .45 Colt and a revolver chambered for .454 Casull. I also have six revolvers and one rifle chambered for .357 Mag so I was ok with parting with my last .44 Mag revolver last year. It was a S&W 629 4" and I don't miss it. For me, .357 Mag and .45 Colt/.454 Casull do all that I need and I don't see another .44 Mag in my future. I have a bunch of .44 Mag ammo and reloading supplies that I need to get rid off but I'm in no rush to do that ... just in case.
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Probably because the two bore sizes, in both dimension and name, have been inextricably linked for over 170yrs. The .44 did evolve into other things, just along a different path. It started with the .44S&W American, then the Russian. Colt's first big bore cartridges were .44's, the .44Colt and .44Henry. The .45Colt actually evolved out of those .44's and at that point, the two diverged. S&W dropped their proprietary .45 and Colt phased out their .44's. The .44 S&W Special brought them together again. Most of the early hot rodding happened with .40's and .44's, not .45's. When we needed the .44Spl to evolve into something more useful, it was the best choice for the task, given the available platforms. The .44's high pressure update came in 1956 with the .44Mag, the .45's came much, much later. Dick Casull developed the .454 in the `50's but it was a cartridge in need of a gun. It wasn't until 1983 that it was chambered in the FA 83, which was designed around the cartridge. It never really became popular until Ruger adapted their Super Redhawk to it. The .44Mag evolved into the .445SuperMag as a silhouette cartridge and for that purpose it excelled. However, the guns were six shot and pressures were more sane. It just as easily could've been a 65,000psi cartridge chambered in five-shot guns that would compete with the .460S&W. However, back then, people wanted a big silhouette cartridge and that's what it was designed and marketed for. It wasn't until decades later that S&W's marketing convinced folks they needed a 5lb revolver shooting 2200fps to kill 150lb deer. The .444Marlin was also derived from the .44Mag. In semi-autos, we have the .44Automag, .440Corbon and .45WinMag. Hopefully they will continue going tit for tat. :)
 
@CraigC , nice explanation. However, it still looks like we're comparing the .45 Colt created in its current form in 1872 to the .44 Rem Mag created in 1956. As you stated, the .454 Casull was created in 1958 (sans host) so it would make more sense to me to compare the .44 S&W Special to the .45 colt, the .44 Rem Mag to the .454 Casull and the .445 Super Mag to the .460 S&W. On a side note, I pre-ordered the 16th Edition of Cartridges of the World which ships in May.
 
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