45 Super Conversion Parts

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Badger Arms

Badger Arms

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Just wondering what was required to make a conversion of a normal 1911 to 45 Super caliber. Did a little research and saw that a 30 pound recoil spring was required along with a new, longer ejector, an extra-power firing pin spring, and shock buffers. I would imagine that this would do it, but am I missing something? Can anybody give me more advice?
 
Ditto on what BEARMAN said about http://www.realguns.com/archives/020.htm.

I think that Ace Custom Guns should let the 45Super get into the public domain. That would do more to the success of the 45Super than anything else.

That said, I see that over at Ace Custom 45s Inc, there is a FAQ.

It is doubtful that the individual who made this statement: 1 - has ever had an F.F.L. license, 2 - has ever owned a business in the Firearms industry, 3 - has ever fired a firearm properly converted to shoot "45 Super®" ammunition, 4 - has never personally seen a box of factory loaded "45 Super®" ammunition, 5 - and certainly has not ever been a "Gunsmith" and probably does not even know one! And most assuredly has never had any direct contact with Ace Custom 45s Inc.

An individual such as this is rather, someone who views himself as an expert but claims not to be, (but who certainly wants you to believe he is!) and who likes to try and elevate his status based on his opinions of someone else's work or ideas (they don't have the ability to develop anything on their own!) and then hide behind a shield of objectivity such as; I am no expert and of course I would not recommend this to someone else, these are just my fact findings (of course they have no direct experience with what they claim to be knowledgeable or factual about). The world is full of these types, and the Internet is a safe haven for them! Beware!
Click to expand...

Sounds like Ace Custom 45s is not ready to let go of the 45Super.
 
I have no experience with the .45 Super. However, I do load for my 10mm Delta Elite. So I can perhaps give you some insight into 1911s that are boldly going where no man has gone before.

I would install a heavier than stock mainspring. Also, the square bottom EGW firing pin stop is a simple, reversible modification that will help slow down that nasty slide velocity.

Stronger magazine springs may be in order.

So, to this point you haven't spent all that much money. I would like to try a bull barrel in my DE, but the R&D budget has been spent for this quarter.

Brownells sells some steel plates that will fit under the stock grips. These are supposed to be a good idea if you ever blow a case head. You should use a barrel that provides good case support.

I am not a fan of the extremely heavy springs. While they may cushion things going back, they really slam that slide forward. I am a believer in the philosophy that the less spring that you can get by is better than too heavy a spring. I have a hard enough time racking the slide on my DE with the 20 lb. spring. The square bottom firing pin stop is the culprit there. It is much easier if you cock it first.

If $$$$$ were no object, I would have some holes drilled in the slide, and then plugged with depleted uranium. The extra weight would reduce the slide velocity.
 
I'd say you could make a slide that had a Glock-like square profile. That extra meat on the top of the slide would add weight without significant bulk increase. I read the article through. The bottom line is:
There is nothing I experienced within this project that would make me feel compelled to send my gun somewhere to be modified to .45 Super®. In fact, most of the modifications bundled into these conversion packages are already standard configurations on quality guns, and really have little to do with the .45 Super®. Required changes seem to be limited to a routine spring change, and maybe a light weight firing pin tapered to reduce primer flow. $17 - $20 tops. I think selecting the correct gun to start with is critical. Personally, I'd only use a steel, full length gun - no alloy, no plastic and no stamped steel slides. I'd also skip trying to covert a short barrel .45 for this purpose. Short barrels negate the whole premise of this round; pushing a .45 slug to a higher velocity.
Click to expand...
Looks like I'll need some brass, a new firing pin spring, new recoil spring, and NOT the ejector. If I have problems with the slide locking back, I'll need a new magazine spring. Sounds simple enough.
 
I have been there with 45 Super. All that is needed is the 30 or 32 lbs recoil spring. If you are so inclined you can use a heavy duty Sprinco recoil reducer. 45 Super will chew up shok-buffs in less than 50 rounds. The gun I used was a Colt 1991A1. I used Wilson mags and had no jams stovepipes or other hiccups. I used the Sprinco gizmo for awhile and tossed it.

I didn't like the recoil. Follow-up shots were much slower than standard 45ACP. I was pushing a 225gr hard cast bullet to 1150 fps. Big deal. I came to the conclusion that it was better to shoot three shots of 45ACP than one shot of 45 Super in the same period of time.

I downloaded to about 1000-1050 fps. Kinda like a +P+ 45ACP. Worked much better than the heavy-duty nuclear power loads.

Good Luck

ZM
 
I think building a 45 Super would be almost the same as a 10mm. 30 pound recoil springs would be tough on the barrel bottom lugs and slide stop pin. I think a better route would be a 23 or 25 pound mainspring and flat bottom EGW firing pin stop combined with a recoil spring of no more than 22 pounds, maybe just 20. A bull barrel and heavy slide are good ideas, but heavy slides are harder to come by and finding a carry holster might be problematic.

I have not yet delved into the world of 45 Super, but I think I have the pistol for it. A Smith & Wesson 4506. I bought it with the idea of 45 Super conversion, just have not gotten around to working on it. I do have experience with the 10mm in my Delta Elite. I think any pistol that can handle 10mm can also handle 45 Super. Granted, anytime you increase operating pressures you will accelerate wear, so I doubt a 45 Super will go 100,000 rounds, but I don't think they will shoot themselves to death in 1000 rounds either.

The Sprinco recoil reducer may be a better "buffer" than a heavy recoil spring and shock buff. They are expensive, so you might want to use some CP Bullets shock buffers just to see if 45 Super is for you. This is what I am planning to do.
 
I think a better route would be a 23 or 25 pound mainspring and flat bottom EGW firing pin stop combined with a recoil spring of no more than 22 pounds, maybe just 20. A bull barrel and heavy slide are good ideas,
Click to expand...

Great minds think alike!:D

I didn't like the recoil.
Click to expand...
 
Stupid computer launched that post before I was finished!:banghead:

I understand your remarks concerning recoil. While adding weight to the slide will reduce slide velocity, adding weight to the frame will help reduce the recoil to more manageable levels. I don't carry my DE very far, so I don't mind it being a little on the heavy side.

There are several little tricks to add weight. I saw some pewter grips at the last gun show. They were substantially heavier than wood or rubber. My DE came with a plastic mainspring housing. I have no issues with the plastic MSH's, and would welcome one on a carry gun, but changed to a steel MSH for the 10mm.

People either love or hate full length guide rods. Their one advantage is that they do add weight. You can even get a tungsten guide rod & plug that will add about 3 ounces. If you use a bull barrel, you will have to use a FLGR anyway.

I am fortunate. I can shoot just about any combination of grip safety that there is. Some might find a beavertail more comfortable.

The farther away you get from the original design, the more problems you will find.
 
Agreed with adding weight on the frame to reduce felt recoil, but I think the main issue is slide velocity and durability. That would mean a heavier slide would not be going so fast that you sacrifice durability.

Tungsten guide rods... hmm... nice idea, but thats still part of the frame group.
 
Yes, increasing the slide weight would go a long way towards increasing durability.

The tungsten guide rod is part of the frame weight, but the tungsten recoil spring plug would add to the weight of the slide. Not much, but every little bit helps. The reverse plug would add the most weight, but even the conventional plug would weigh more than stock. Not enough to justify the expense, but it is a drop in part, easily reversible.

Tungsten, titanium, depleted uranium, polymers.:rolleyes:

I bet JMB is spinning in his grave right now.
 
John Moses Browning was a real thinker, I expect if he were around today he would look at the 10mm and wonder why he hadn't thought of it!
 
Super Conversion

Gentlemen...may I inject somethin' here?

I would strongly suggest that before converting to any high-pressure round
that you have your pistol checked for the amount of locking lug engagement between the slide and barrel. With rounds like the
.45 Super and the Big 10...you want as close to 100% engagement as you can get.

It's a common misconception that a heavy recoil spring is all that's needed
for such rounds. The recoil spring doesn't have anything to do with containing pressures. By the time the recoil spring comes into play, the pressures have already dropped to nil. The locking lugs absorb the
brunt of the impact...and if engagement of those lugs aren't up to par,
they will shear off in short order.

Ned Christiansen proved that the recoil spring has little or no effect on
containing pressures or barrel unlock/linkdown timing when he repeatedly fired a .45 without a recoil spring in the gun. The recoil spring controls
slide velocity and timing in recoil AFTER the pressure drops and AFTER the barrel has unlocked and linked down...and it determines the slide velocity on the return to battery. That's all.

Don't assume that because you can buy a drop-in recoil system to convert
your pistol to .45 Super or .451 Detonics, that all will be well. You might
get away with it, and you might not. As the pressures go up...the lug engagement and barrel fit becomes more critical...even with .45 +P
loadings. That's why these kits come with a disclaimer..."These
parts should be installed by a competent gunsmith." It's because a
smith who knows the design will check these things out before installation.

If John Moses had seen the Big 10, he would have probably said:
Uh...Better fit that barrel up good and tight, boys."

Luck!

Tuner
 
Tuner is right. There is no room for error with these kind of high performance, (high pressure), loads. None whatsoever.

I am going to go in the other direction soon. I am going to load a couple of boxes for my .38 Super. A young lady has expressed interest in the Gov't model, and I thought this would be a good way to get her started. I haven't decided on a load yet, but will probably pick one out of the .38 ACP data in the Hornady manual. Shouldn't take too many shots to find a dose of 231 that will be both accurate and work the action reliably.

I would sure like to know what velocities .38 ACP actually produced a century ago. I suspect it has been tremendously watered down over time.

Nice thing about a .38 Super is how they don't produce enough slide velocity to cause problems, even if loaded hot. 14 lb. springs are usually plenty. Keep your pressures to a reasonable level, and you are good to go.

.451 Detonics! That brings back memories. That is a cartridge that did not stand the test of time. Ranks right up there with the .41 Action Express. We need a museum of fallen cartridges.

My next project will be to convert my Series '70 Gold Cup to the 5.5 mm Velo-Dog.:D
 
Too bad we can't have full-auto handguns.

Could you imagine a .17 HMR, or even a smaller flechette/dart teeny-tiny needle sized bullet and cartridge, that can fit 60+ rounds inside of a standard 1911 magazine, firing full auto and controllably because of the large slide mass? :evil:
 
.451 Detonics & .38 ACP

Howdy grendelbane,

Back in the day when the .451 was all the rage, a lotta guys were
jumpin' on that bandwagon. On an average of about once a month, I'd
get one in that had undergone the change...complete with sheared
barrel lugs (Top and bottom) and ruined slides. One guy even brought a
Combat Commander to me to get a clean bill of health for the conversion.
I checked the lug engagement and advised him not to do it. The barrel
that came with the "Drop-In' kit didn't provide the lug engagement it
should have...I offered to work on it for him...He declined and said that
it would be fine because he didn't plan on shooting it very much. It took
less than four magazines for everything to come unwrapped.

The .38 ACP factory ammo would hit about 1050 fps from a 5-inch
barrel...which is about the same level of today's loadings, assuming that
you can even find any of it. Remington used to run a small lot at certain
times of the year...probably along about the time they'd run .45 Auto-Rim.
It's the Super that's been downloaded. I had a .38 Super Colt years
ago, and my father had a box and a half of the old ammo. Shazam!
That stuff was uber-hot! Never clocked it, but compared to the modern
Winchester Silvertip +P ammo that chronographs at about 1150 or so...it HAD to hit well over 1300 fps.

If you load to the standard ACP levels with 125- 130grain bullets, a 12-pound spring should be about right.

Luck!

Tuner
 
Why not go all the way into Magnum territory and do the poorly-named .460 Rowland? I've fired one in both M1911 and Glock frames, and it seems to work just fine with more than "Super" velocities.
 
Tuner, I have a partial box of .38 ACP. Relatively modern production. I picked it up some where in the late .80s, and the box was consistent with Remington's production back then. It would clock about 930 fps, and shot fairly well in my Gov't model. 130 grain jacketed bullet, it looked identical to the bullets in a box of .38 Special I bought about the same time, except the Special had a cannelure.

Not to be outdone, Winchester loaded their 125 grain revolver bullet in .38 Super cases. Good bullet for expansion, but feeding was kind of questionable. I don't miss that load. The Silvertip was a big improvement.

This is my second fling with the .38 Super. 20 years ago I thought the hot setup was 115 grain Hornady JHP's and healthy doses of Unique. Worked well to reduce the local groundhog population.

I think that I can blame Major George C. Nonte for that. Now the hot setup is Remington 147 grain JHP and reasonable doses of Power Pistol. It seems the evolution of cartridges occurs at a measurable pace decade by decade.

Colt had a cartridge developed similar to the .40 S&W back before the Great War. They introduced the .38 Super at exactly the wrong time. It is funny how history and economics affect our pistol cartridges more than we realize. Everybody in the world wanted to make long 9mm pistol cartridges except for Germany. So what ended up being the most popular?:cuss:
 
To the best of my memory these are the things that were done by Gary Hindeman (SP) on my 5" 1911 45 Super conversion:

1) full length custom guide rod with hard buffer between dual end plates
2) dual counter wound recoil springs est 32#
3) special recoil spring bushing for the spring setup
4) heavy firing pin spring
5) heavy (23# or 25#) main spring
6) almost square bottom, tightly fit firing pin stop
7) tight fit extractor with higher than normal tension
8) tuned ejector

This was done on a Les Baer framed ED Brown SS gun. After shooting it a few times, I replaced the stock parts and abandoned 45 Super. I would do it again in an H&K full size 45 but it just didn't seem right in a $2000 custom gun.
 
I don't think I would Superize a $2000 gun either, but I have a S&W 4506 that really has no use in my stable. Seriously thinking about a buffer or the Sprinco recoil reducer, heavier recoil spring, firing pin spring, magazine spring and mainspring. The 4506 does seem to have a heavier slide than the 1911. Where did I put my scales?....
 
.38 Super Ammo

grendelbane said:

the late .80s, and the box was consistent with Remington's production back then. It would clock about 930 fps...
______________________-

Hmmm...They seem to have attenuated the ACP loading a bit too.
(I clocked some pre-war ACP amo in a 5-inch barrel that went a tick over a thousand.) No doubt due to the number of century-old Colt autos still floating around or buried in attics. may be why they brought the Super
down too...Somebody that knows not the difference could have an unpleasant surprise if the original-spec stuff was used in one.

Yeah...they print a warning on the boxes, but some folks don't
read the directions.:rolleyes:

Good info grendelbane...Thanks for the tips.

Tuner
 
Tuner, I have seen a re-print of an old Sears catalog, 1904, I think. They were selling Colts in it, and claimed 1300 fps for the 130 grain .38 ACP. At the time I thought this was strange. The 6" barrel would help a little, but a honest 1300 fps with Unique, or other powders available then would be a bit much for those old guns, I think. Of course, they made other claims for other products that I had a hard time believing too.

I don't remember hearing many stories of mishaps with .38 Super in .38 ACP. Either the downloading worked, or people in the old days heeded the warnings on the box.

Too make this post match this thread I will comment on the fact that the same problem exists with the .45 Super. It will chamber in .45 ACP, and there are some senior citizens out there that should not be firing such a load.

Perhaps we need a .46 Super and a .39 Super!:evil:
 
Warnings

grendelbane said:

.38 ACP. Either the downloading worked, or people in the old days heeded the warnings on the box.
_________________________

Probably. Either that or the fact that, back then it was pretty common knowledge that there were two different pistols and two different loadings...and never the twain should meet. While the old Colts likely wouldn't kaboom if fired with the Super ammo...they probably wouldn't continue to function for very long if fed a steady diet of the stuff.

Keepin' it on topic...No worries. We're pointing out the very real risks
involved in firing what amounts to a near proof load in a gun designed
to stay within certain paramaters, and how critical it is that everything
be "right" within the gun before it's done.

The standard 1911 design is more than strong enough to contain the
chamber pressures of the .45 Super...but I think that it's asking a lot
of the locking lugs on a pistol that was designed around a low-pressure
cartridge like the .45 ACP. Just not much leeway there.

For the readers of this thread, ask yourselves this:

Would you take a bolt-action rifle in .30-06 caliber...machine 25% of the
bolt lugs off, rechamber the rifle to .300 Win Mag...and expect it to live very long?

Food for thought...Make sure that the barrel is correctly fitted with maximum lug engagement in the slide...

Luck!

Tuner
 
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