454 Casull

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BGD

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I just loaded 5 rounds.

29 grains w296
CCI SR Mag primer
300 grain Hornady XTP mag

COAL 1.750 with heavy crimp.

After shooting them in my Ruger Alaskan there was burnt powder back all the way to the rim of the case. the primer looks ok, not flattend at all. No pressure signs that I can see. The rounds had a good thump to them:). Do you think this means I need more powder or is it normal to have burnt powder back that far on Casull brass? the Hornandy manual lists loads from 28.3 to 32.3 grains. But they dont list magnum primer,so I am being cautious.
 
How did they shoot? Accurately? Did the cases extract easily? I get powder burns on max loads in my .460. They are unlike the the powder burns on my .45 auto loads. The powder burns on the .45 auto polish off easily and quickly, while those on the .460 cases do not. I tend to think they're different beasts. One is blowback, one is scorched. Lyman gives a max of 28.7 fo H110, and 28 gr of W296 with a 300 gr 300 XTP-Mag in .454. Hodgdon gives a max of 30 with a 300 grainer. I don't think you are getting powder blowback due to low pressure.
 
Yes they shot good and extracted easily. I am surprised to see that the hornady manual has 2.3 grains more powder in their max load. I wonder if there latest manual is different. I have the 8th edition.
 
Speer 13 lists 296 and 300gr at:

1.750" OAL
32.0 max
30.0 start

I like H110 better in 454, gives great results for all types of bullets/loads.
 
H110 and 296 are the exact same powder and have been for at least 20yrs.

H110/296 mag revolver loads will usually display a little bit of primer flattening at safe loads. Since you have the Hornady data for the exact bullet you are using, I would trust that over the more general data from the other manuals. If you are not satisfied with the load bump it up a little but keep it under the max Hornady data.
 
I went ahead and tried 5 rounds at 30 grains with no pressure signs. Shot the same as the 29 grain loads, maybe a little more recoil? could be psychological.

May try 5 a 31 grains just to see. Still under the 32.3 in the Hornady 8th edition.
 
It sounds like the charge is either light, or you may not be applying enough roll crimp.

H110 / 296 needs it pressures to properly burn / ignite. This means you need a good roll crimp, magnum primer, and enough powder to get pressures up where they need to be.

GS
 
Both starline and hornady brass. I trimmed them to 1.375 so I could get a consistent crimp. I didn't want to crimp to much and deform the bullet,but there is a good roll over on the canalure.

How do you know when the crimp is good enough?
 
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More than crimp

Sorry I cannot shed light on the initial question (powder burn on the outside of the case), but I feel compelled to mention that crimp only provides part of the bullet retention.

Friction between the case wall and side(s) of the bullet is (I am told by sources I trust) provides the bulk of the bullet retention.

If your bullets are undersized, squished by a post-sizing die or your case was oversized (due to over-belling or insufficient re-sizing) or your case walls are thin or the brass is not elastic enough to provide a good grip, you may not have a lot of bullet retention.

Lost Sheep
 
yes, good bullet tension is a must for that load, .004" minimum. you can check the tension of a loaded round by measuring the diameter of the case up where the bullet is seated and measuring the diameter of the case just below where the bullet is seated. the difference in the two measurements is the tension the case applies to the bullet.

murf
 
How do you know when the crimp is good enough?


When they don't move under recoil.......:D




Sorry I cannot shed light on the initial question (powder burn on the outside of the case), but I feel compelled to mention that crimp only provides part of the bullet retention.

Friction between the case wall and side(s) of the bullet is (I am told by sources I trust) provides the bulk of the bullet retention.

If your bullets are undersized, squished by a post-sizing die or your case was oversized (due to over-belling or insufficient re-sizing) or your case walls are thin or the brass is not elastic enough to provide a good grip, you may not have a lot of bullet retention.

Lost Sheep

As LS says, neck tension has as much to do with bullet retention as crimp. But in the big bores, proper crimp is a necessary evil.

I load for the .454's big sister. I bell the case just enough to get the bullet to sit on the case to seat it. I've found that by chamfering your cases well after trimming reduces the amout of bell needed and thus improves neck tension. I crimp so that I can see a definite roll into the cannelure. I seat and crimp in two steps. I have never had a bullet jump crimp, and it's a B*#*% to pull 'em with a puller.

Hrnady's 300 Gr XTP-MAGS are quality bullets with a very thick jacket. Hard to deform them with a crimp, you would feel heavy resistance from the press before you would deform the bullet. It is also a .452" bullet and not undersized. I would not use something like the Lee FCD to post size the round, not because of fear of resizing the bullet, but because it would do nothing positive. Unlike a pistol, there is no feeding issues in your revolver. Cases sized and roll crimped properly will drop into your chambers easily.

Again, really big bores are a different animal than pistol loads. This is why folks that have never reloaded for them don't have a clue. As I said before, the residue on my .460 cases are more burns, than powder residue and I get them even on rounds that have sticky extraction......in other words it's not because I don't have enough pressure to expand the brass. I'm surprised with the charge levels Hornady gives for .454. Generally they are always on the anemic side compared to other sources. Again, one reason I use at least three sources of info when developing loads. I've found most times, the extremes at either end can be just that....extremes. When more than one source agrees with each other(and have done their own load testing), that's generally where I will start.

One thing to look for is sticky extraction. Many load manuals and factory ammo are kept below SAAMI specs in .454 and .460 to aid in ease of extraction. You get sticky extraction, you need to back down. Sometimes it takes only small amounts of increases in powder charges in the big bores to go from easy extraction to sticky extraction. Keep your increases small as you go up the ladder. Do a volume test on your cases, I've found that Starline and Hornady cases in .460 have different volumes and need different recipes to achieve similar performance.
 
Thanks I appreciate all the input. It definitely helps to hear how others are loading these heavy rounds. I loaded up 30 with 30 grains w296 and 300 g Hornady XTP mags. Will shoot these and see if I want to go up by .1 and see what happens. Maybe I will just stick with the 30 grain load. It is plenty stout.

thanks again. If you can think of any other pointers let me know.
 
Thanks I appreciate all the input. It definitely helps to hear how others are loading these heavy rounds. I loaded up 30 with 30 grains w296 and 300 g Hornady XTP mags. Will shoot these and see if I want to go up by .1 and see what happens. Maybe I will just stick with the 30 grain load. It is plenty stout.

thanks again. If you can think of any other pointers let me know.
I am still puzzled by the carbon fouling on the outside walls of your cases. Usually, that is a sign of blow-by permitted by low pressure inside the case (causing poor sealing of the chamber).

What else could cause a poor seal?

A speculation leads me to ask, "Is the poor seal happening early in the combustion process or later?" Outside of a ballistics lab, I don't know how to get an answer to that question. Does anyone?

Lost Sheep
 
How do you know when the crimp is good enough?
Is the crimp at least this firm? Is the case mouth rolled into the center (Deepest part) of the cannelure?

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I am still puzzled by the carbon fouling on the outside walls of your cases. Usually, that is a sign of blow-by permitted by low pressure inside the case (causing poor sealing of the chamber).

....and many folks claim that flattened primers are a sure sign of overpressure too. While they can be, they also can be nuttin' at all, but flattened primers. .45 caliber in .45ACP runs about 17,000 CUP, while in .454 it runs about 53,000 CUP. Case diameter is the same and case thickness is relatively the same. If .45 ACP seals at 17,000, shouldn't the .454? In a revolver, there is always movement of the cases when fired. That's why we get flattened primers as the case slides back against the recoil shield. It's probably in this nano-second of moment that there is some leakage around the case. Again, IME, it is not soot or powder residue like in low pressure pistol rounds, but is scorching. I think the OP needs to be concerned with loading for accuracy and forget about loading higher powder charges until it stops, 'cause I doubt it will.
 
If your bullets aren't moving under recoil, your crimp is fine. Personally, I think way too much creedance is given to precision crimping as a tool to solve loading problems. As long as your bullets stay in place, and you are not squeezing the bullet out of shape, or cutting into it, your crimp is fine.

I don't know what is causing your stains on the brass except maybe what blows by before it expands and seals, but it takes no more pressure to seal a 454 than 45LC. If 29gr doesn't do it, 30 won't either. Blow by is from light cat fart loads that won't expand the brass.

You have a good load. Maybe work it up a little and see if accurracy improves, but other than that, I'd call it good, and go with it.

One little FYI note.

Freedom Arms initailly warned against using 45LC dies for 454 because 454 dies resized for tighter bullet fit, and because the dies applied a "tapered roll crimp", unique for this cartridge at the time. RCBS was the only company to make dies then. I only found this warning after purchasing and using Hornady 45LC dies because I couldn't get 454 dies, and never had any issues, but keeping their intent in mind helps understanding of reloading this round.
 
Freedom Arms initailly warned against using 45LC dies for 454 because 454 dies resized for tighter bullet fit, and because the dies applied a "tapered roll crimp", unique for this cartridge at the time. RCBS was the only company to make dies then. I only found this warning after purchasing and using Hornady 45LC dies because I couldn't get 454 dies, and never had any issues, but keeping their intent in mind helps understanding of reloading this round.

Thats interesting about the dies. I thought I noticed the bullets fitting tighter in the 454 cases than the 45LC cases. That explains it.

Thanks for the pictures walkalong, that is what my crimps look like.

I think i will shoot for accuracy and see where I end up. I have 30 of the rounds with 30 grains loaded. I will shoot them and see how accurate they are and then go from there. I didn't see any obvious pressure signs, they didn't stick in the cylinder, and they felt like 454 rounds on the hand end of the gun.
 
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