45ACP 230gr RMR FMJ RN - Winchester WST

[vaalpens]

My favorite for 9mm is WSF, different animal than WST

Thanks for correcting me. I always get confused between WST and WSF. When I picked up the 1lb WST, I had to check and double check that I had the correct one before paying for it.

 

[Charlie98]

Just FYI... as you guessed... WST is not WSF. I’m not a big fan of WST in 9mm even with the discussion of load data prior.

I always caution folks that try WST... it is reverse temperature sensitive...

 

[murf]

Thanks!

I just picked up a brick of federal #150 today. Not sure yet if i will try the 150's, or just stick with the CCI300's like my previous loads. Probably better go with CCI300 for an apples to apples comparison.


Thanks for the comments. So do you see a trend with the COL? Certain guns just like a shorter COL, or certain headstamps perform better with a certain COL?

No trend. I start long and shorten .010" at a time to get an idea ( ten shot groups) of what is the best col. Every load is different.

luck,

murf

 

[vaalpens]

I went in to the National Forest today and tested my loads. I think I was impressed how the loads performed, even though I did not see the very good grouping I was hoping for. The loads felt very good when I shot them, and with all the spent cases in a small area. No failures at all.

The velocity, especially the ES/SD numbers where interesting. There was definitely a trend where the ES/SD improved up to a point, and then deteriorated load by load again. The WST 4.5gr load is definitely where WST performed the best regarding ES/SD number.

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.250"
RMR, 230gr, FMJRN, WST, 4.1gr, CCI300
Average: 636
ES: 40
SD: 17.4
Force: 207
PF: 146
Velocities: 660, 650, 625, 628, 620
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.2"
Test Date: 09/11/2020

This was the best grouping load, but based on the ES/SD numbers, I'm not sure if I will be able to duplicate the grouping. I will retest this load and see if I can duplicate or improve on it.

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.250"
RMR, 230gr, FMJRN, WST, 4.2gr, CCI300
Average: 651
ES: 37
SD: 14.8
Force: 216
PF: 149
Velocities: 672, 635, 640, 652, 659
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.72"
Test Date: 09/11/2020

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.250"
RMR, 230gr, FMJRN, WST, 4.3gr, CCI300
Average: 669
ES: 31
SD: 14.1
Force: 229
PF: 153
Velocities: 676, 655, 684, 653, 677
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.95"
Test Date: 09/11/2020


45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.250"
RMR, 230gr, FMJRN, WST, 4.4gr, CCI300
Average: 681
ES: 32
SD: 13.6
Force: 237
PF: 156
Velocities: 696, 693, 672, 683, 664
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.94"
Test Date: 09/11/2020

The following load probably performed the best, but I would have liked to see a better grouping. This load will be retested to see if I can duplicate the same ESW/SD number, and maybe get a better grouping.

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.250"
RMR, 230gr, FMJRN, WST, 4.5gr, CCI300
Average: 701
ES: 11
SD: 4
Force: 251
PF: 161
Velocities: 702, 700, 707, 701, 696
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.92"
Test Date: 09/11/2020

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.250"
RMR, 230gr, FMJRN, WST, 4.6gr, CCI300
Average: 721
ES: 23
SD: 8.7
Force: 265
PF: 165
Velocities: 732, 709, 718, 725, 725
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.09"
Test Date: 09/11/2020

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.250"
RMR, 230gr, FMJRN, WST, 4.7gr, CCI300
Average: 733
ES: 36
SD: 14.6
Force: 274
PF: 168
Velocities: 749, 725, 744, 713, 736
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.41"
Test Date: 09/11/2020

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.250"
RMR, 230gr, FMJRN, WST, 4.8gr, CCI300
Average: 743
ES: 42
SD: 15.6
Force: 282
PF: 170
Velocities: 744, 760, 744, 718, 751
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.9" (** only 4 rounds are included in the grouping)
Test Date: 09/11/2020



The following load was tested with the rounds being kept in my cooler box for about 1 hour. I was expecting to see an increase in velocity over the previous 4.6gr load, but they were about the same. I probably did not let it get cold enough before testing them, or load wasn't exactly the same since I did not load them at the same time.
45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.250"
RMR, 230gr, FMJRN, WST, 4.6gr, CCI300
Average: 713
ES: 28
SD: 12.7
Force: 260
PF: 163
Velocities: 698, 721, 726, 721, 702
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.35"
Test Date: 09/11/2020

 

[Dudedog]

Might just be that WST is not that temp sensitive, I have heard it was reverse temp sensitive, but I don't recall anybody testing it and posting numbers. (until you did above)
Thanks for checking those.

I can't seem to find my WSF numbers so I will retest it when I have a chance to see it it is more sensitive to cold than WST.

 

[buba68]

How did you shoot your groups? Off hand, off of a bench supported or shooting from a Ransom rest?

 

[vaalpens]

Might just be that WST is not that temp sensitive, I have heard it was reverse temp sensitive, but I don't recall anybody testing it and posting numbers. (until you did above)
Thanks for checking those.

I can't seem to find my WSF numbers so I will retest it when I have a chance to see it it is more sensitive to cold than WST.

I actually loaded up a magazine with 5 rounds, put it in a bag, and then in the cooler box. I'll test it again next time and see if I can leave it in the cooler a bit longer. maybe it is more an ambient air thing, instead of the temperature of the components.

 

[vaalpens]

How did you shoot your groups? Off hand, off of a bench supported or shooting from a Ransom rest?

I use a table with a rest and a mounted scope. The scope is not zeroed, so POA is not tested when I test my loads.

 

[Erief0g]

What Are you using to take pictures of your targets? I like the strong contrast and info attached for reference and would like the same thing in my digital logbook

 

[Charlie98]

Might just be that WST is not that temp sensitive, I have heard it was reverse temp sensitive, but I don't recall anybody testing it and posting numbers.

I have a WST .45ACP load I clocked last month in 115F heat, I plan to check it this winter when it's cooler... but I'd love to see anyone's numbers.

 

[Dudedog]

When I did my test of WSF (whose numbers are hiding from me)
I put the rounds in a zip look bag and put it in the ice water in the bottom of my ice chest (didn't time how long but a couple hours)
If I remember correctly they were about 15-20 fps faster than the hot ones (hot were about 100)

I should have taken my chrono to my last match for the "hot" test, 107 in the afternoon of the match.

What Are you using to take pictures of your targets?

I believe he is scanning them.
I was taking pictures of mine until I asked vaalpens the same question, ahhh, much easier to just put them on the scanner and scan them. Put a sheet of colored paper on the back for contrast.
(Don't know why I didn't think of that....)

 

[buba68]

I use a table with a rest and a mounted scope. The scope is not zeroed, so POA is not tested when I test my loads.

Not sure what size groups you are trying for but you might be limited by the accuracy of the P220. It is a good gun but not a target grade gun.

 

[vaalpens]

What Are you using to take pictures of your targets? I like the strong contrast and info attached for reference and would like the same thing in my digital logbook

I actually have 2 targets on one page. So I scan them, save them to a pdf, then just cut and resize the target IO want to share, and save it as an image.I scan the targets with a colored piece of paper behind it so that the bullet holes are well defined.

I actually start with pre-printed targets alone. Once I have my load data captured in a spreadsheet, then I print the load data over the pre-printed targets. The middle colored bulls are just some Avery color coded labels I stick on.

 

[vaalpens]

I have a WST .45ACP load I clocked last month in 115F heat, I plan to check it this winter when it's cooler... but I'd love to see anyone's numbers.

I went out shooting early in the morning, but it was probably in the 80's when I went out. The ammo was sitting in the sun. Next time I will load up a few loads again and wait for some lower temperatures to see if it makes a difference.

 

[vaalpens]

Not sure what size groups you are trying for but you might be limited by the accuracy of the P220. It is a good gun but not a target grade gun.

I am just trying to get to around .5"-.6". I have a few loads with my P229's below .6". I would expect the P220 to be similar or even see better groupings than the P229's (40S&W and 357SIG). The P229's have 3.9" barrels, and were bought as certifies pr-owned, where the P220 has a 4.4" barrel, and bought new. It also has the SRT, so it has better trigger.

 

[vaalpens]

When I did my test of WSF (whose numbers are hiding from me)
I put the rounds in a zip look bag and put it in the ice water in the bottom of my ice chest (didn't time how long but a couple hours)
If I remember correctly they were about 15-20 fps faster than the hot ones (hot were about 100)

I should have taken my chrono to my last match for the "hot" test, 107 in the afternoon of the match.

I thought it would help if I load the mag first and put the mag in the cooler. Maybe next time I will make sure I have enough ice water and not just ice. The next time I will create the loads at the same time and test one of them in December/January. It should be plenty cold by then.

I believe he is scanning them.
I was taking pictures of mine until I asked vaalpens the same question, ahhh, much easier to just put them on the scanner and scan them. Put a sheet of colored paper on the back for contrast.
(Don't know why I didn't think of that....)

Yes, I scan them using some different colored paper as background.

 

[Dudedog]

Maybe next time I will make sure I have enough ice water and not just ice

Most likely they were cold enough the way you did it and the temp just does not make a big difference with WST.
(might be different in Alaska or someplace at -20 or colder. Ice water is warm compared to some places in winter)
Where I am at in CA I can reasonably expect a range of say 30 to 120, other places might have a wider range or differences on the low or high side.

I may have to check to see how much some dry ice is to get my WSF loads colder than 32ish to see if it makes a difference, might be fun to see the results.

 

[Cannibul]

Might just be that WST is not that temp sensitive, I have heard it was reverse temp sensitive, but I don't recall anybody testing it and posting numbers. (until you did above)
Thanks for checking those.

I can't seem to find my WSF numbers so I will retest it when I have a chance to see it it is more sensitive to cold than WST.

I don't have a chronograph.

But I worked up a 45 ACP load during the winter months here in Texas that worked great. Then that same load at 90° or warmer would not cycle the action.

It did this with three 1911 pistols and my XDM. It was almost but not quite. I had to go up .1 grain to get it to cycle in the heat.

 

[vaalpens]

I don't have a chronograph.

But I worked up a 45 ACP load during the winter months here in Texas that worked great. Then that same load at 90° or warmer would not cycle the action.

It did this with three 1911 pistols and my XDM. It was almost but not quite. I had to go up .1 grain to get it to cycle in the heat.

Thanks for the info.

So maybe my test was all wrong. It is not lower temperatures I need to increase the pressure/velocity, but much higher temperatures to lower the pressure/velocity. I can just move to Phoenix or Bakersfield and redo the test.

 

[Charlie98]

Well... I split the difference. I shoot in the very southern tip of NV, half way between the streets of Bakersfield, and Phoenix.

I posted this earlier...

I'll be curious to see what your impressions are. My last test load was 5.2grn WST under a 200grn RMR RN bullet @ 1.23"... a book max charge that produced only 730fps.

Where my other test loads were into the 800's fps, a full charge of WST only produced 730fps. Statistically, I lost 10% velocity against the other powders, which is significant. I'll be headed out to NV again in OCT, I'm going to wag along some more test loads of WST to see what I get, again. If you look at Hodgdon's data, that load should have put me into the mid- to high 800's (adjusting for my 4" barrels, of course,) so I was kind of disappointed with the velocity I saw, but, again, not the accuracy. Hey, the pistols cycled 100% and ripped the bull out... I can't ask for much more.

 

[vaalpens]

Well... I split the difference. I shoot in the very southern tip of NV, half way between the streets of Bakersfield, and Phoenix.

I posted this earlier...



Where my other test loads were into the 800's fps, a full charge of WST only produced 730fps. Statistically, I lost 10% velocity against the other powders, which is significant. I'll be headed out to NV again in OCT, I'm going to wag along some more test loads of WST to see what I get, again. If you look at Hodgdon's data, that load should have put me into the mid- to high 800's (adjusting for my 4" barrels, of course,) so I was kind of disappointed with the velocity I saw, but, again, not the accuracy. Hey, the pistols cycled 100% and ripped the bull out... I can't ask for much more.

Thanks for the information. So it seems that WST's baseline is normal and colder temperatures, but it looses velocity in much higher temperatures.

 

[vaalpens]

I know this is a 45ACP thread, but to me it is more a WST thread, and/or a thread to find a better grouping load.

This made me think that I should try WST in 9mm also. Well, there is not much load data out there. So after some research I found some good threads on THR regarding 9mm/WST.

It seems it could be a very accurate load, but you need to be careful about a possible spike in pressure. Case fill is a major discussion point, especially regarding being careful about compressed loads.

LiveLife posted some excellent information, especially about determining max load for a specific COL and bullet. Well I did some calculations using the RMR 124gr TCFPMW bullet. This bullet measures .5535" and I load it to a 1.065" COL. Based on my calculation, this combination will result in the bullet being seated .2365" into a .748" case.
Calculation: .5535" bullet + .748" case = 1.3015" - 1.065" COL = .2365" bullet seating depth.

My calculation is different from LiveLife's calculation, and finding the max load was also a bit different since my mind works differently. The end result should be the same though.

To find the max load I started with 4.6gr in the case, then set my caliper to .2365", and placed the back end of the caliper in the case. So when I moved the caliper around and it disturbed the powder, it indicated to me that the load is over max. When I got to 4.3gr, nothing was disturbed, so it seems 4.3gr is the maximum WST load in 9mm for the COL and bullet I am using.

Based on this I will probably start my load workup from 3.8gr up to a max of 4.3gr with .1gr increments. I can probably increase my COL and have a higher max, but then I will start loosing neck tension and have to start thinking/testing setback.

Any comments regarding my calculation or load data will be appreciated.

 

[Crazy Horse]

I'll have to relook my notes when I worked up WST with 9mm. I was able to get it functioning, but i did have one instance of the bullet getting caught in the barrel. It wasn't a squib because they cartridge came apart as it cycled.
Because the powder fills the case so much, I had to takes care to not seat the bullet too low. So, I chalked it up to seating the bullet too shallow. I used ACME 125gr coated bullets. I've had great success with these bullets and other powders, but I normally seat them to 1.058-1.090. i believe I used a 1.128-1.130 COL. Those lengths are normal for jacketed bullets. Because the powder was so high in the case, I didn't calculate to try and seat any lower.

I would recommend using jacketed type bullets as they have higher COL's over cast bullets allowing higher COL's and better seating to avoid risking seating too shallow a bullet.

Thanks for the information and Good luck.

CH

 

[Charlie98]

This made me think that I should try WST in 9mm also. Well, there is not much load data out there. So after some research I found some good threads on THR regarding 9mm/WST.

I also mentioned in my previous post that, as much as I like WST, I'm not a big fan of it in 9mm. There is a reason why there isn't much data for it in 9mm, the exact reasons are very likely beyond my pay grade. The same is true of BlueDot in the .41MAG... I don't know what magical combination of tolerances are there to make it unsafe in the .41... vs .357 or .44... but Alliant seems to think there is a problem. I have used BlueDot in my .41 loads prior... but I sure don't anymore. WST is the same thing. Can it work? Sure, Crazy Horse proved that it can (that was an interesting thread, BTW...) but I fall back on the 'there is a better mouse trap' theory. Even in these times of empty store shelves, there are umpteen better powders for use in 9mm than WST.

 

[Crazy Horse]

Charlie98,

Thanks for the mention, I wish I could take credit for the accolade, but as the thread shows, Livelife and Dudedog provided plenty of assistance. Others such as Texas10mm and 1Kperday also chimed in.

I still use WST for 45acp loads (almost exclusively), but for 9mm, right now I'm using Power Pistol. This is mainly because I have been loading Lead coated bullets, and as I explained to Vaalpens-not to mention I was able to find a 4lb cannister in this time of shortages. I think COL of 1.28-1.130 is too shallow for that type of bullet.

As you said there is a better mouse trap theory. That holds true, which is why I went with Power Pistol (unfortunately they were and have been out of Sport Pistol). I also found and purchased a 1lb jug of HS-6. I got a buddy into reloading and that was the powder he chose, so I wanted to try it out just in case he had some questions. I will say that HS-6 burned really clean at the starting loads. But at the starting loads, it felt a bit light on the recoil. I have since then decided to up the charge by a couple 10th's of a grain when I use it again.

Vaalpens, I you decide to continue on your journey, please post your experience and data. I'm curious to see how it turns out for you especially in the COL department.

CH