45C BP loads

[whughett]

I am in the process of obtaining another ROA. Have a conversion cylinder so think I am going to set this up as cardridge only.

Questions on loading BP cartridges. I shoot 45c so have a large quanity of brass. Will earmark a hundred or so BP only. So what do I do? Stuff as much powder in as the case will hold, no air space between shot and powder. Expect the same rules apply here as in C&B.

Have .454 RB, .454 R.E.A.L (200grns) and .454 Conicial. Also .452 styles and weights for center fire 45s. Can lube the bullets of course but how about the RB's. Lubed Wads between powder and shot for short term. ? Standard LP primers? LR primers? Have both. Crimping ?

When I obtained my first ROA, (stainless) 20 years ago it came with a blued conversion cylinder and a handful of 45C loaded with RB. Friend said they were "Gallery" loads. Shot them off, years ago put the brass aside and a few years later found the brass was pretty well history. So how abouth cleaning the brass between loads? Dry tumble with corn cob or walnut media is my normal procedure. I like shiny brass, but can get beyond that.

Have a progressive as well as single stage equipment and won't be loading more than a hundred at a time. Watched a procedure on YOU TUBE with a long drop tube for the powder, is that necessary ?

Sorry about the length of this , but lots of questions.

 

[Don McDowell]

37 grs of goex 3f, a thin card wad and seat the bullet of your choice in a case primed with a large pistol primer.

 

[Skirmisher 263]

Toss the fired cases in a small bucket, cover with white vinegar. Let them set for a couple of minutes to neutralize the fouling. Jiggle them around a couple of times. When the bubbles stop appearing use the water hose to rinse them off well spraying in the bucket. Let them dry in a loading block or plastic cartridge thingy and they will last forever.

 

[Patocazador]

You can try nickled cases to see if they hold up better.

 

[Busyhands94]

I use nickle cases for my BP .38 Special cartridges, they hold up pretty well and are easy to clean. I put all my empty brass into a quart mason jar, when I get home I cover the cases with hot water and white vinegar. I shake the brass a whole bunch, pour out the liquid, and let them dry on a towel in the sun. My nickle cases are still nice and shiny!

 

[dickydalton]

I have shot some Black Dawg 45s in my ROA and just put the cases in with all of my other 45 Colts in the tumbler. They came out just as clean as the rest.

 

[RPRNY]

Load a full case of BP with no more than 1/8" compression under a milk carton wad, you may or may not want to have a thin (stress "thin") layer of lube under the bullet base to diminish fouling.

We all have our pet cleaning fetishes. BP will stiffen brass quicker than smokeless if not cleaned quickly after use and, given generous 45 Colt chambers, you can get split cases, especially with over compression. I like a quart of warm water, a teaspoon of Dawn washing up liquid and 2 tablespoons of citric acid. Do this outside - it will stink of sulphur. The citric acid also passivates the brass. I tumble after dry.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Exact grain weight of powder does not really work, because not all brands of Black Powder weigh the same. For my Black Powder 45 Colt loads, I put in enough powder so that when the bullet is seated the powder will be compressed between 1/16" - 1/8". That's all there is to it. For most 250 grain bullets I use a Lee 2.2CC dipper (or equivalent) that will bring the powder up where I want it. But it all depends on how deep into the case your proposed bullet sits when it is seated and crimped.

You might want to take a look at this little blurb I wrote up a few years ago, makes it pretty simple to determine the correct amount of powder for your circumstances.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,18257.0.html

Standard Large Pistol primers is what you want, not Rifle. And you don't need magnum primers, BP is actually easier to ignite then Smokeless.

I dump my brass in a jug of water with a squirt of dish soap in it soon after shooting them. Wait 24 hours and they will have too much corrosion. Rinse them out real well and let them air dry, then into the tumbler no different than any other brass. No, nickel plating will not prevent corrosion, you have to soak them within a few hours. I DO NOT allow vinegar anywhere near my guns or brass. Vinegar will leach some of the copper out of brass, making it brittle. If you use vinegar, do not leave them in there for long. Accept the fact that your brass will be tarnished, shiny brass does not shoot any better than tarnished brass.

About lube; I only use Big Lube bullets lubed with SPG for my BP loads. There are lots of ways around it if you do not have access to them. Generally speaking, adding card wads and lube on the base of the bullet just makes for more work. Stopped doing that years ago.

 

[Oyvind]

My most accurate load in my Uberti Remington New Army with Lothar Walther match barrel and R&D coversion cylinder is:

• Winchester cases
• Federal Large Pistol Magnum Primer
• 18 grains Swiss 2
• 1 card wad
• Semolina as a filler
• .454" roundball cast with a 50/50 mix of wheel weights and pure lead
• No lubrication in the cartridge, but bore butter in front of the chambers (cap & ball style)

 

[whughett]

A little tardy but thanks to all that took the time to respond to this thread.
Special thanks to Oyvind for the photo and load data and to Driftwood for the link, nice info and, also, nice hat.

Vinegar or no vinegar, maybe a little Simple green and warm water followed by a dry tumble in corncob media.

 

[ridgerunner1965]

ok im looking into getting a conversion kit for my roa. the roa is supposed to have a bore dia of 457? what kind of accuracy are you guys getting from the smaller 452/454 bullets used in the 45 lc?

my roa is very accurate with the 457 rb but i know when loaded into the cylinder you shave a ring of lead off. ive never ejected one and measured it.

can the 452/454 bullets be accurate in what is supposed to be a 457 bore?

 

[ridgerunner1965]

the long drop tube is just a way to get more powder in a case than you can by just pouring it in. you can do the same thing by simply sprinkling the powder slowly into a funnel held over your case.that works almost as good.

long drop tubes are pretty common with black powder cartridge loaders.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

ok im looking into getting a conversion kit for my roa. the roa is supposed to have a bore dia of 457? what kind of accuracy are you guys getting from the smaller 452/454 bullets used in the 45 lc?

my roa is very accurate with the 457 rb but i know when loaded into the cylinder you shave a ring of lead off. ive never ejected one and measured it.

can the 452/454 bullets be accurate in what is supposed to be a 457 bore?

Slug the bore to find out what your groove diameter actually is. I doubt it is .457.

the long drop tube is just a way to get more powder in a case than you can by just pouring it in. you can do the same thing by simply sprinkling the powder slowly into a funnel held over your case.that works almost as good.

long drop tubes are pretty common with black powder cartridge loaders.

Drop tubes are common for precision rifle shooting at long distances with cartridges like 45-70. The drop tube uses gravity to pack the powder in denser.

I have been loading Black Powder in pistol cartridges such as 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38-40 for years. I just dump the powder in out of my BP measure. Drop tubes and slowly trickling powder in for such cartridges is unnecessary. When loading 45-70 for my Sharps, I use a drop tube.

 

[Don McDowell]

Droptubes were the only way in the early days of cartridges to get the same amount of powder into a case that the factories did, as they had the mechanical loading machines. The typical reloading press folks are familiar with today did not exist back then , so being able to apply the leverage needed to compress the powder wasn't possible.
With todays typical compound linkage reloading presses, and variations of the "compression" die, a person really needs do no more than hold your scale pan/dipper a few inches above the powder funnel and pour slowly. Then off to the compression die adjusted to compress the powder to the right point the bullet will seat firmly ontop of it, without distorting the bullet nose.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

With todays typical compound linkage reloading presses, and variations of the "compression" die, a person really needs do no more than hold your scale pan/dipper a few inches above the powder funnel and pour slowly. Then off to the compression die adjusted to compress the powder to the right point the bullet will seat firmly ontop of it, without distorting the bullet nose.

Again, that is fine for loading rifle cartridges for long distance precision accuracy, but it is completely unnecessary for cartridges like 45 Colt fired from a revolver. Refer to my earlier post where I posted photos illustrating how much compression is needed. All I do is dump in the powder, then seat a bullet on top of it, allowing the base of the bullet to compress the powder between 1/16" -1/8". That's all there is to it.

I conducted some experiments years ago with my 44-40 rounds, regarding protecting the base of the bullet from distortion. I made up some 44-40 rounds with the powder dumped in and seated the bullet normally, and I made up some rounds with the powder pre-compressesd with a compression die, and a card wad separating the bullet from the powder charge, so the base of the bullet would not be distorted by seating onto the powder. Then I fired both types of rounds from an 1892 Winchester at targets set out at 50 yards. With iron sights and my admittedly poor eyesight, there was no significant difference in group size with either type of cartridge.

Drop tubes, and trickling powder, and compression dies, and card wads all add to the labor of making Black Powder rounds for a revolver. Keep it simple, figure out how much powder will be needed to be compressed 1/16" - 1/8". Dump the powder in, seat and crimp the bullet. Easy peasy.

Save all that other stuff for precision long distance shooting a few hundred yards with cartridges like 45-70.

 

[Trek]

I would not use Simple Green on any metal. The Air Force did some tests and found that Simple Green causes Hydrogen Embrittlement in metal. It could cause early case failure. It is best to just stick with some mild detergent such as dish washing liquid.

 

[RPRNY]

ok im looking into getting a conversion kit for my roa. the roa is supposed to have a bore dia of 457? what kind of accuracy are you guys getting from the smaller 452/454 bullets used in the 45 lc?

my roa is very accurate with the 457 rb but i know when loaded into the cylinder you shave a ring of lead off. ive never ejected one and measured it.

can the 452/454 bullets be accurate in what is supposed to be a 457 bore?

As per above, you need to slug your bore. I believe you'll find GROOVE diameter at .457". If it is way over bore, you will have some trouble seating bullets that large in the brass and may need to go to a heeled bullet. But I suspect you will find .454 cast bullets will suit. Just be sure to use pure lead or no harder than 20:1 alloy. These "hard cast" commercial bullets will not obturate at BP pressures/velocities. Indeed, sizing .457" round ball to .454" and seating will work. I like a wad especially under round ball to mitigate blow-by and cutting.

 

[J-Bar]

.457 balls are for the Ruger percussion cylinder...they shave a nice lead ring. Round balls are supposed to swage down as they enter the bore, so you should expect the barrel bore diameter to be significantly less than .457.

I'm no great shakes with a micrometer, but pushing a .454 slug through the barrel of my ROAs shows the rifling completely engraved around the bullet. .454 cast bullets in .45 Colt brass give very good accuracy in my Kirst conversion cylinders.

 

[whughett]

I would not use Simple Green on any metal. The Air Force did some tests and found that Simple Green causes Hydrogen Embrittlement in metal. It could cause early case failure. It is best to just stick with some mild detergent such as dish washing liquid.

WOW, who would of thought that. What the heck is in that stuff. I buy it by the gallon and use it, diluted on a lot of things, full strength for degreasing. Go figure.

 

[swathdiver]

The original Remington black powder load was a 250-255 grain round nosed bullet atop 40 grains of 2Fg powder. Good for 900fps. A Keith bullet of the same weight is a far more effective game/man killer due to its flat head.

 

[Don McDowell]

If Simple Green was going to hurt brass cases and possibly shorten case life, between it and the Brasso I use I should of had to replace my cases long, long ago, instead of using the same old tired ones for 10+ years...

 

[whughett]

The original Remington black powder load was a 250-255 grain round nosed bullet atop 40 grains of 2Fg powder. Good for 900fps. A Keith bullet of the same weight is a far more effective game/man killer due to its flat head.

My regular load for 45C in smokless is a bullet thrown from a Lyman 452260 mold. With my alloy it comes out to about 255 grains. This is the bullet I would use. With 40 grains by volume, of 3F the powder would have to compress 3/16 to a 1/4 inch without a card.
Will it compress that much without bulging the cases.

 

[whughett]

If Simple Green was going to hurt brass cases and possibly shorten case life, between it and the Brasso I use I should of had to replace my cases long, long ago, instead of using the same old tired ones for 10+ years...

Snopes is silent on SimpleGreen and metal life. Never been researched or never happened?

 

[Don McDowell]

Probably both...
No you won't crush your cases by compressing the powder 1/4 inch or more, matter of fact that's about the point at which most powder works the best.
I shoot 37 grs(by weight, I don't own any scales the read in volumes) of Goex 3f with a .030 fiber wad under a Remington bulk 250 gr lead bullet , or a rcbs 250 KT bullet, and get excellent accuracy and velocity around 900 fps.
Haven't tried any in the 45 yet, but Olde Eynsford 2f has done some razzle dazzle velocity in the 38-40.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

My regular load for 45C in smokless is a bullet thrown from a Lyman 452260 mold. With my alloy it comes out to about 255 grains. This is the bullet I would use. With 40 grains by volume, of 3F the powder would have to compress 3/16 to a 1/4 inch without a card.
Will it compress that much without bulging the cases.

No, it will not bulge the case, but you are needlessly putting in more powder than is necessary. Have you priced Black Powder recently? I only get about 200 rounds out of a pound of powder, there is no need to stuff extra powder in the case. The old 40 grain load was only achieved with the old Benet primed folded rim cases. They had more case capacity than any other 45 Colt load. This is what the old Benet primed rounds looked like. Notice these are the 30 grain loads that the Army soon settled on because the 40 grain loads had too much recoil and some of the early SAA revolvers with malleable iron frames and cylinders were blowing up.




The later Balloon head 45 Colts only had about 37-38 grains of powder in them, because they had less interior capacity. Modern solid head cases have even less capacity. There is no way to stuff 40 grains of powder into modern cases without compressing the powder much more than was done in the original cartridges.

To add to the confusion, not all Black Powder weighs the same. My standard load of powder in the 45 Colt under a 250 grain Big Lube bullet is 2.2CC of powder. I don't have my reloading notebook handy right now, but I seem to recall that 2.2CC of Goex FFg weighs around 33.5 grains, 2.2CC of Elephant FFg (no longer available) weighed about 37.5 grains, and 2.2CC of Schuetzen FFg (my current favorite) weighs about 35.5 grains.

Really, it is so simple. Just put in enough powder so that when the bullet is seated it will compress the powder by between 1/16" - 1/8". That's all there is to it. Forget trying reproduce the old 40 grain load, 2.2CC of FFg, whatever it weighs, is plenty.