45LC for slow twist barrelled converted 1858

[flibuste]

Hello,

I read a lot on Kirst and R§D conversion for 1858 but one point seems not to be addressed : the slow twist rate of most 1858 replica does not stabilize the standard 250gr bullet of 45LC at 850f/s. This problem is worsening with shorter barrels ( 5"" and even worse with 3")

I have observed that all 1858 Pietta are slow twist rate . 1858 Uberti were the same until recently ( approx 5 years ?) where the twist has changed to fast (like the ROA approximately).

That means that in a new Uberti 1858, one can shoot standard 45LC 250gr / 850f/s (in a conversion ) with perfect accuracy. In a Pietta the accuracy with that load is very poor (due to twist only because with balls it is OK). I have observed that in a Pietta the accuracy could be improved with a faster and shorter bullet . 200gr and 1000f/s

Any experience about that ?

Thanks

 

[1858rem]

my 1858 has a 1:16, what do you mean slow, and what are you considering fast?

 

[1858rem]

here is the description of the ROA off midwayusa.com.... , i actually think the 1858 is often more accurate if not at least just as accurate with the conversions as without

The Ruger Old Army is designed to be the most advanced and accurate cap and ball revolver ever made. It features an innovative hammer and base pin assembly that will not come open during recoil and can be disassembled without tools for quick and easy cleaning and maintenance, even at the range. This revolver has a round barrel, steel frame, 6-shot cylinder, fixed sights and 2-piece grips.

Technical Information

Revolver:
Material:
# Blued Steel Frame, Cylinder and Triggerguard
# Rosewood Grip (two-piece)

Caliber: .45
Bore Diameter: .443"
Groove Diameter: .451"

Barrel Length: 5 1/2"
Overall Length: 11 1/2"
Weight: 2 5/8 lbs

Notes:
# Fixed Sights
# Six-groove rifling, right-hand 1 in 16" twist
# For use with standard #10 or #11 percussion caps.
# Recommended for use with a .457" round ball or .454" conical pure lead bullet.

ummm i actually cant find much on pietta, but im pretty sure in some of the papers that came with it it was stated as a 1:16 rate of twist i did see the Remington was a 7 groove left hand twist though

 

[Voodoochile]

Uberti .44 caliber revolvers have a 1:18 LH twist.

I'll look to be sure tonight but I think Pietta .44 caliber revolvers have a 1:30 RH twist which is still capable to stabilize a conical bullet at the velocities that these pistols are capable of producing.

 

[sundance44s]

Both my Pietta and Uberti Remingtons shoot better with conversion cylinder when I use the 250 gr bullets instead of the shorter 200 gr bullets ...My ROA with conversion seems pretty much the same , except the ROA does shoot the 200 gr bullets a tad better than my Remmies ...surely none of the makers today are useing a right hand twist on the Remingtons ....Back in the day Mr.Remington started out useing a right hand twist and changed to the left hand twist after problems with the barrels shooting loose .. left hand twist tightens and problem solved .

 

[Voodoochile]

I wasn't sure of the twist, but I still think it's about 1:30

 

[flibuste]

Yes, Pietta twist is # 1:30.

When I speak about accuracy, I compare at 25 meters (5" barrel Rem 1858) and for instance with standard 45LC loads :

Uberti is grouping approximately within 5 " when Pietta grouping 15" (groups can be improved but the difference remains). I repeat it is not because of quality of guns because with balls they are identical.

Even with 200gr bullets and higher load grouping with Pietta is improving but can not achieve Uberti accuracy. Maybe it could but I do not have a chronograph and can not seriously increase powder loads for safety reasons. The only comparison between standard 45LC (250gr / 0.50 A1 powder) and the special load (200gr/ 0.55 A1) is that felt recoil is identical (I know it is subjective.)

Regards

 

[BHP FAN]

The whole test is subjective.I feel that the old Euroarms is more accurate than either Pietta,or the newer Uberti's.I don't think the barrel has as much to do with accuracy at twenty five yards and under as the grip.To me,Urberti's are largeish,and Piettas grossly swollen.I've had three Ruger old Army's over the years,and though the grip is huge,it's in keeping with the over all ''giant Whitney'' feel of the thing,and it's so well balanced over all [especially the short barreled ones] that you hardly notice it.Still,if these kind of barrel questions haunt you,sell both and buy a gain twist progressive rifled ''Shooter's model'' Remington,from Dixie,built just to address such concerns.

 

[Voodoochile]

Um sorry to put a wrench in your works there bud but my 23ish year old Pietta 1858 NMA can keep a pretty consistent 3" group at 25 yards with the 200gr. .450 Lee conical bullets with a pretty substantial 30gr. charge of FFFG Goex, ofcorse it does better with the 142gr. .457 ball & a lighter 25gr. charge but only at 2" grouping on average.

Even my year old Pietta 1858 NMA with the 5.5" barrel produced decent groups "well compared to 15 inches" before I started any work on it, averaged 6" at 25 yards with 200gr. .450 Lee conicals & 25gr. FFFG, now I'm keeping consistent groups of 3" at 25 yards with the heavier 220gr. .456 Lee conicals & 30gr. FFFG.

My new to me Uberti 1858 NMA Millenium is keeping those 220gr. .456's in a real nice 2.5" group at 25 yards with 30gr. FFFG.

None of this is benched, just 2 hand hold.

 

[BHP FAN]

RH0135 Remington Army "Shooters" Revolver [from Dixie's catalog] $595.00



Click to enlarge
This Remington, with its progressive rifling, won the gold medals in the World Muzzleloading Championships in Toronto in 1987 and in Pforzheim (W. Germany) in 1989. Has 2 piece European walnut grips with a satin finish. Blued steel frame. .44 caliber, blued 8”, tapered octagon barrel with .008” deep rifling. 1 in 30” twist, 5 land and 5 grooves. Front sight is .270 dovetailed, blued steel base and blade. Rear sight V-notch in top strap. Six shot. Features silver plated brass triggerguard, blued steel backstrap. 13 ¾” overall and weighs 2 ¾ lbs. Recommended load 22 grains of FFFg black powder with .457 round ball and .44 revolver wad. Manufactured by Pietta/Italy. THIS PRODUCT CANNOT BE SHIPPED TO NEW JERSEY OR CANADA.

 

[BHP FAN]

Voodoochile,I don't doubt for a minute your prowess with the revolver,and I love the old Pietta just as it is...you won't catch me buying a $600.00 race gun made out of basicly the same thing.I'd rather buy two Piettas from Cabella's and about four spare cylinders plus leather and caps...You misunderstand the thrust of my point,here.I'm saying a reasonably Able pistolero,you for example,or what the heck,even past his prime ol' me for instance is going to shoot better with his favorite than with a supposedly more accurate gun,and that unless you crank the thing into a vise accuracy differences from make and model just aren't that great.And,that if you're the sort of person that that sort of thing DOES bother,they've already made a revolver just for you.Me,I like the pietta,for cost,for the fact that spare cylinders almost always drop right in,for Cabelas excellent quick delivery and customer service,for the fact that the R&D Conversion cylinders actutually did drop right in...I'm actually kinda still in mourning for mine,which I sold a coupla years back to buy a pair of .357 1890 Remingtons reputed to have belonged to Maria Uberti...one in the white ,one blued,but with consecutive numbers...anyways my point is that you're more likely to shoot better with what you like,and that the difference between the guns is more felt,than actuall.YMMV.

 

[Voodoochile]

BHP FAN:
Bud my comments were not dirrected to you because I understand your point to the OP & I'm sorry if you thought that they were.

They were in responce to the OP's last comment to the Uberti & the Pietta in the accuracy.

Uberti is grouping approximately within 5 " when Pietta grouping 15" . I repeat it is not because of quality of guns because with balls they are identical.

 

[BHP FAN]

OH...nevermind,then.Carry on,nothing to see here,move along...LOL!

 

[flibuste]

Hello Voodoochile,

I see you get very good accuracy with your guns and also that there is still a difference between both barrels.

How do you manage to load the LEE conical 456 in the chambers ?

I have shot 3" 1858 and Colt 1860 with slow twist (Pietta) and could not obtain good accuracy with conicals. Anyone who can ?

Regards

 

[Voodoochile]

My Uberti Chambers were large enough to load the .456 220gr. Lee Conicals correctly.

My 5.5" barreled Pietta '58 on the other hand since it's best groupings were 6" at 25 yards I did some homework & found that the chambers were .4460 but the Lands were .4400 & the Grove were .4495 which my theory was that it was not getting all the bore for a tight seal & causing some accuracy issues so I reamed the chambers to .4510.
Accuracy has improved & I can load the larger heavier bullet.

 

[madcratebuilder]

My 2008 Dixie catalog shows both the Pietta and Uberti 1858 to have a 1-32 twist.

 

[1858rem]

well isnt that crazy about the twitl... well i went an checked my barrel an it makes only a quarter turn or so..... now im wondering which of my guns has a 1:16. but my best groups at a measured 23yds(ran outta room at that location) were consistently 2.5" and less WITH the 200g conical. i dont know how my gun actually shoots with cartridges accuracy wise yet, seemed to hit the can every time with the 255g. when i get time ill try my 200g, 255g an mebbe rb in cartridge with various powders an charges to see what i get. so how much difference does the rifling(pistoling?) twist actually make? i dont shoot much rb to know its accuracy, i had the 200g mold for a long time and recently got one for rb so mebbe ill figure out that too

 

[Coyote Hunter]

I have a shooters model sold by Navy arms. In reply to it being a "raced up model" here is what Navy Arms said about mine after I bought it at a gun swap.

What you have is a Deluxe model 1858 New Model Army
in .44 cal. The first true reproduction of the originial Remington built to
the dimensions and weight of the originial . It feasurea an 8" barrel with
progressive rifling
all steel construction and blue finish and silver plated trigger guard. This
revolver is intended for the competive shooter and is factory tuned for
ultimate performance. Overall length
is 14 1/4, weight 2 lbs 14 oz., rec. ball diam. .451 round ball.
Manufactured in Italy with Pietta and imported during the
early to late 1980 - 1995. If in excellent condition this gun value would
be approximately $250.00.

Hope this helps.

Navy Arms
Dixie Carpenter

Now, it is the smoothest, well built and accurate BP revolver I own. BUT, I've been thinking about making a conversion out if it,"just because". I wuz wondering how it might shoot with the progressive twist and 250gr .45lc ammo. Any ideas?

 

[BHP FAN]

Well,it ought to do really well.Before I sold mine,[just one of many mistakes,DON'T ask about my Colt #1 .41 cal. Derringer] I bought two R&D cylinders for them,and they shot to POA/POI at 25 yards,and they were just the ''standard'' model.
Yours is what was often converted to .46 rimfire after the War.

 

[oneiron]

I was under the impression that Pietta's 1858 Remington's had progressive rifling with a one in thirty two twist. The rifling was less after the forcing cone and became one in sixteen at the mussel. If I am wrong I sure would like to know. Mine does not have adjustable sights or dove tail front sight. Just a standard 1858 Pietta from Cabela's purchased this year.

 

[Voodoochile]

Standard Pietta 1858's have a rifling twist of 1:32 but the shooters model does have the progressive rifling that increases the twist rate as you get closer to the muzzle which I think is 1:32 - 1:24.

 

[mykeal]

Voodoochile is correct. Progressive rifling is only done on the (significantly) more expensive 'Shooter's Model' Remington.

 

[madcratebuilder]

Voodoochile is correct. Progressive rifling is only done on the (significantly) more expensive 'Shooter's Model' Remington.

In Pietta is the shooters model different than the target model?

 

[mykeal]

I believe the 'target model' has the same barrel as the standard gun but with adjustable sights, and the shooter's model adds the progressive rifling. There are other differences, as well, such as better fit and finish, that make the shooter's model a premium gun.

 

[madcratebuilder]

I believe the 'target model' has the same barrel as the standard gun but with adjustable sights, and the shooter's model adds the progressive rifling. There are other differences, as well, such as better fit and finish, that make the shooter's model a premium gun.

Thanks mykeal. I finally found some reference to the 'shooters model'. From the pic's I saw it is a much nicer blue, almost a S&W gloss, silver plated trigger guard plus the high end barrel. I choked at the $675 price. Maybe I well find a good used one someday. It's added to me list.

One second thought, that price isn't that out of line considering what I paid for my LeMat.