5.45 or 7.62 x 39?

[JShirley]

I'm getting a WASR-2 from AIM ($289 plus shipping, plus transfer fees, etc) for The Jordy. Already bought 12 AK-74 magazines from a link someone else posted two weeks ago...final price was about $6 each, shipped, IIRC. Ah. Here 'tis.
Also, look here.


John

 

[High Planes Drifter]

Kor - that price on 5.45 is pretty much what I've been seeing on different sites. Ammoman has it for that price, about 140.00 for 1080 rds. I've considered what you brought up about local availability of 7.62 vs. 5.45; its an important point that I'm taking into consideration while deciding which gun to get. I do like what the 5.45 has to offer in terms of light recoil (not that the ak47 has stiff recoil), is a lighter gun overall, and cheaper ammo prices in bulk. Also, like I said earlier, Im fine with ordering ammo online. Im used to it; its how I feed my AR, and my M1A. On the other hand I like knowing that there is domestic 7.62 x39 available should there be an import ban. There's also more accesories, mags, and parts available for the ak47. Also with quality ammo it will make a pretty handy brush gun for hog + deer if need be. Penetration of block and brick is not a concern for me. If anything I like knowing the 5.45 wont penetrate them, then the weapon is a consideration for home defense; I live in a brick house. I've found both guns listed at $289.00. Decisions, decisions.

JShirley, thats the gun Im talking about! I found the AK47 at Classic Arms for the same price.

 

[Thin Black Line]

Tempting --but I'm going to start saving for the kel-tec bullpup.

 

[mpmarty]

why not

have the best of ALL AK worlds?
Arsenal AK74 in 5.45X39 from Bulgaria
Saiga in 7.62x51 (wanna argue penetration?)
4 sealed cans of 5.45x39
4 cans of 400 rounds of 1970s Indian 7.62x39 reloadable and non corrosive.
1000 rounds of 7.62x51 from Argentina
Who needs 7.62x39?
tons of wheel weights
several thousand thirty caliber gas checks
several thousand 174gr 308 "pulls"
tens of thousands of primers in my shop referigerator with my welding rod
more 5, 7 and 10 pound jugs of powder than will fit in my old chest freezer
get the picture?

 

[Evil Monkey]

OK! I retract what I said in my previous post! In fact, I will standardize on 5.56mm only.

BECAUSE I JUST SAW THIS!!!!!

From Krebs Custom.
http://www.krebscustom.com/KalashnikovRifles.html

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

Kalashnikov himself still preferred the 7.62 after the 5.45 came out.

I fail to see how this is relevant. Seems like it always gets brought up when people talk about the 47 and the 74, but Kalashnikov wasn't a ballistics expert or anything... He built the 47 IN 7.62x39 because HE HAD NO CHOICE. It was Communist Russia, you do what you're told... and they already had a rifle chambered in 7.62x39.

Saying he wanted the AK to be in 7.62x39 really means nothing, other than it was one person's preference.

 

[Danus ex]

Wolf and probably other foreign ammunition manufacturers produce new 5.45x39. Unless they're blocked from selling ammo in the US, it won't be drying up. So fear, fear, FEAR! And spend lots of money on ammunition.

 

[Thin Black Line]

I fail to see how this is relevant.

Might be the whole heavier bullet bucks the wind better and makes a bigger
hole causing a nasty wound thing that Kalashnikov knew firsthand from his
own combat experience. This is the same thing that inspired us to go bigger
than the 5.56 when the US went to wide open spaces in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Isn't that why the 6.8 came into existence?

We could get into the whole bean-counters-thought-the-5.45-was-cheaper
thing. Maybe it was a factor just as much as it takes 3 guys to take care of
a wounded guy from a smaller bullet and therefore reduces manpower for the
line theory?

The little 22 bullets cause a decent wound channel when they tumble just
right, but a .30 cal just messes you up without a whole lot of worry about
luck.

 

[cheygriz]

Massive quantities of 5.45 are starting to come in from former Soviet Empire countries that are switching to the .223. Much of this stuff is 7N6 with the steel penetrator core like .223 M855.

Wolf and Barnaul make factory new.

There isn't going to be any ammo shortage.

And for those who read, or remember history, when the Soviets started issuing the 5.45MM AK74s to their troops in Afghanistan, the Mujahideen accused the Russians of using "poison bullets" because the 5.45 was so MUCH more effective than the old time pumpkin roller 7.62.

 

[pipboy]

he is right
7.62 39 is so rare now that it goes for 5.00 a box up here for brown bear
mean while 5.45 goes for 3.50 a box kind of wish i had gone for the 74

 

[GigaBuist]

Wolf and probably other foreign ammunition manufacturers produce new 5.45x39. Unless they're blocked from selling ammo in the US, it won't be drying up. So fear, fear, FEAR! And spend lots of money on ammunition.

Indeed. The odds of cheap foreign ammo being cut off from the world, and US, market is so slim it would never happen.

Anybody know where can I get some of that South African 7.62NATO?

Honestly, if I get another AK I'll get one in 5.45 just to give my collection a bit more diversity and with the supplies of 7.62x39mm being eaten up on the market 5.45 is looking better and better.

 

[cheygriz]

Regardless of the world situation, or the p;olitical situation, or the price of sow bellies or......

Hell, it's always a good idea to have your ammo bunker filled to overflow.!

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

Might be the whole heavier bullet bucks the wind better and makes a bigger
hole causing a nasty wound thing that Kalashnikov knew firsthand from his
own combat experience. This is the same thing that inspired us to go bigger
than the 5.56 when the US went to wide open spaces in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Isn't that why the 6.8 came into existence?

We could get into the whole bean-counters-thought-the-5.45-was-cheaper
thing. Maybe it was a factor just as much as it takes 3 guys to take care of
a wounded guy from a smaller bullet and therefore reduces manpower for the
line theory?

The little 22 bullets cause a decent wound channel when they tumble just
right, but a .30 cal just messes you up without a whole lot of worry about
luck.

You can spin it any way you want. The Russians knew how effective the 5.56 was in Vietnam and that was a huge factor in the change.

You still failed to prove how Kalashnikov was an expert on the subject. I know plenty of guys with combat experience who don't care for the 7.62x39. Does that mean that the 7.62x39 sucks? Not really. Like I said, one persons opinion doesn't really matter, unless it's your own, and then you can choose accordingly for yourself if you live in a free country like I do. But it still doesn't make the 5.45 or the 7.62x39 suck, just because your opinion is that.

Shot placement (in modern combat rifle cartridges) will almost always trump caliber size, bullet selection, tumbling, fragmenting, brick penetration, or opinions...

 

[cheygriz]

Rocky,

That post makes more common sense than any other in this thread!

 

[countryrebel]

You can bet to that if anything ever did happen here on american soil I will be using hollow points and not full metal jackets so it's not going to matter to much where you get hit.

 

[Kor]

Another point about 5.45X39 availability...

...which I just realized: Ammo importation is not dependent on U.S. Customs or ATF policy alone. If Vladimir Putin gets a burr up his butt and decides to keep all the 5.45 ammo for the Russian military's use in training, stockpiling, or another "land war in Asia" then it's gonna be every bit as unavailable...

Bottom line: Buy as much as you can afford NOW, while it is still available, rather than wish for more ammo later...

 

[Leif Runenritzer]

There are unanswered questions that made me reconsider 5.45. Beware: confusion ahead.
It is said that 5.45 was designed after seeing the effectiveness of 5.56. It is also said that 5.56 gets its effectiveness from fragmenting, whereas 5.45 only tumbles. Someone named Fackler tested 5.45 on sedated pigs and found that it didn't leave much of a permanent wound channel, however this test is the only one, AFAIK. Furthermore, the Russians haven't changed the design to make it fragment. So is mere tumbling about as good? Is fragmenting overrated? Not that it matters, because 5.45 that is imported into the US cannot lawfully have the steel core, and might indeed fragment. However, i've heard of Wolf 5.56 not fragmenting because of the jacket being too thick. After this unsatisfying inconclusion, 7.62 wins for me by default.

 

[JShirley]

This is the same thing that inspired us to go bigger
than the 5.56 when the US went to wide open spaces in Iraq and Afghanistan

Rubbish. Heavier bullets can, and do, work well at longer ranges. We have some MK 262 Mod 0 in our ASP...and a surprising shortage of 6.8mm.

The "wound one, take out three" is urban legend. The raison d'etre of the assault rifle is a weapon that is controllable on FA fire, and that is effective at the ranges most fighting typically takes place. Since this is shorter than the ranges the old battle rifles were capable of hitting, the rounds are lighter and more compact, and more can be carried.

 

[Gun Wielding Maniac]

BTW, the best price on 5.45 ammo right now is actually SOG... with $118 per 1080 round can.

Interesting video... 5.45x39 vs. 5.56 bullet penetration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hdLoL0i5Sg&mode=related&search

 

[Thin Black Line]

There isn't going to be any ammo shortage.

You're not old enough to remember the 1990s Chinese milsurp dry up.
My point earlier was the supply and cheap price is completely due to
foreign milsurp imports, that there is no domestic production and would
be limited at best (just like the 7.62x39 still remains), and that at some
point in the future the 5.45 may be more scarce for one reason or another.

But fine, go ahead and assume the 5.45 will be $2/box for the rest of
your life like all the Chinese and Russian 7.62x39 still is.....just remember
the word "surplus."

And for those who read, or remember history, when the Soviets started issuing the 5.45MM AK74s to their troops in Afghanistan, the Mujahideen accused the Russians of using "poison bullets" because the 5.45 was so MUCH more effective than the old time pumpkin roller 7.62.

and

You can spin it any way you want.

Do you understand the design of the "poison bullets" at the time? I wonder
how effective the 5.56 or 7.62 would have been with a huge empty space
under the tip of a sorta-kinda FMJ? Might this behaves in flesh something
more like a hollow point or a soft point? That's going to do something else
entirely than a solid core FMJ won't it? Were there any Geneva Convention
complaints about this bullet at the time due to its design?

Since you guys feel tiny bullets are so superior, go ahead and argue the case
for switching over to the 5.7 x 28 mm while you're at it. In fact, let's go
ahead and make the 249 our vehicle mounted weapon instead of the 240
or 50. Hooah....

The "wound one, take out three" is urban legend.

I admit I won't be able to find a McNamara quote on that. I suppose we
could go total bean counter and dicuss cost for manufacturing, though?
Certainly cost has never been an option when supplying us in the field, right?

These kind of discussions are always fun when people grip their 5.56 or 7.62
in one hand while tapping away with the other. Kind of akin to mossberg
vs remington or my beer vs your beer jousts

 

[JShirley]

The Soviets produced the first assault rifles, using Japanese 6.5x50mm ammunition, back in 1916. First their civil war, and then logistics prevented them from seeing more widespread usage.

Seeing the results of the MP43 used against them in WWII convinced the Russians of the value of intermediate cartridges.

Results.

Smaller cartridges that covered the distances at which rifle battle was typically conducted, could be used in firearms to exert a much higher volume of fire, and it was effective.

 

[Thin Black Line]

Ok, I'll just concede that the 5.45 will eventually be $10 per case shipped and
one round will drop an elephant --then we can get on to the next debate of
tastes great - less filling.

 

[dolanp]

Just a year or two ago a lot of people were selling off 5.45 rifles because the ammo was so expensive to get. Right now there is a big influx of it and it is cheap. No telling how long that will last, though.

 

[spartan20]

This thread has been very imformative. I too am looking into my first rifle, and as of half an hour ago it was between a Saiga .223 or just a WASR 10 or SAR 1. The gun show is coming up here March 17-18 where I will have between $320-$350 to spend on said rifle, and now if the price is right the 5.45 is in the running. Even better since someone posted up a source for the mags as well.
Thanks alot for the great info.

 

[cheygriz]

Thin Black Line,

I'm 63 years old, a veteran, a retired LEO and a 15 year police firearms instructor.

I actually remember the 90s quite well. And I remember that when Chinese ammo was banned, the Russians, and a dozen other countries rushed in to fill the gap.

I am also a student of military history. When the U.S. Army switched from the .45-70 to the .30-40 Krag, the old time dinosaurs like the Jeffie Coopers of that era screamed bloody murder that those "poodleshooters" would never stop a man. And those damn little 30 caliber "mouseguns" were going to get our troops killed.

When John Garand designed his semi-auto rifle, the dinosaurs screamed bloody murder again! You're never going to be able to keep your troops supplied with ammunition if you give them semi-autos.

And so it continues. The dinosaurs of today scream that the 9MM isn't as effective as the .45. The 5.56 isn't as effective as the 7.62!

To which I answer. It's the 21st century folks! Get over it!