5.56/.223 not grouping

[hardheart]

Only bottleneck cartridge I load for, and done very little of it (under 100 rds). Only other calibers I load are 9mm and 357.

Loading everything with Lee single stage breechlock challenger, Lee dies (2 die set with FCD bought separately)

55 gr RMR FMJ-BT with cannelure
26.4 gr TAC (within the 5.56 mil spec load data from Western)
Mixed range brass, decapped, wet tumbled with ss pins, rinsed, dried, then sized.
CCI 400 primers
seated to cannelure and crimped with Lee FCD

25 yards at a bench, support hand resting on a bag, buttstock shouldered -
M&P Sport, 16" 1:8 barrel
5 shot group - 1 7/8" with a 3-9 scope at 3x settting; 2" with a 3 MOA red dot on a 45 mount

compared to -
ZQI M855 NATO spec
5 shot group - 7/8" with the same scope. I put the first two in the same hole and got too excited...

I've loaded from 25.6 to 27 gr in 0.2 gr increments with similar poor results. This was before I got the FCD (just delivered yesterday) Neck tension always seemed ok, as I could press any round into my bench top without moving the bullet. No idea what I 'm doing wrong. Only thing I can think is to drop down into .223 pressure load data and see if things tighten up. But I just don't know why I can't at least come close to the mil-spec stuff I have on hand. It's a different bullet, 62 gr penetrator vs 55 gr FMJ, but that shouldn't mean grouping this poorly.

 

[troy fairweather]

For having mixed range brass and a fmj that grouping would be fine by me.

 

[Random 8]

Do you have any other bullets on hand? At 25 yards, that extrapolates out into 6-8MOA which is truly awful. I suspect your barrel may not like that particular bullet. Really doesn't sound like anything stands out in your equipment, components, or technique. I skip the Lee FCD, but I don't think using it will necessarily hurt your groups. Only one that might cause a blip on my radar is the mixed brass. If you have some that varies wildly, especially in length in combination with the LFCD might cause some big outliers. Try segregating a lot of same headstamp, same nominal length and see if that settles things down. Personally I would try a different bullet before going down any more rabbit holes.

For comparison, finally put my plinker load on paper this weekend. Speer 55SP, mixed range brass, .223 range charge VN140 (thrown), seated to just under mag length. Grouped 5 into an inch at 50 yards prone with a basic DPMS carbine with an awful trigger. Load development....done. Sounds like you likely have a higher pedigree of rifle/optics. You should do better. Keep at it.

 

[hardheart]

Forgot to mention that I do use a case gauge and cutter to trim the brass. I'll separate by headstamp to see how well that helps, thanks.

I also picked up some Hornady 55 soft points. Gotta give those a shot, though I really want to at least halve the groups on these FMJs as well. Gonna try H335 and accurate 2520, if my order ships.

Would get some heavier pills as well, maybe up to 69 gr, but that's not quite so easy to do these days.

 

[Random 8]

I've found that generally switching powders might shave groups, but usually won't extinguish a dumpster fire. I've seldom found a powder to be the cause of dumpster fire groups, with one exception over 30 years of reloading. I have frequently found specific bullets that my barrels didn't like. My old .308 simply wouldn't shoot anything Sierra worth a darn. It didn't like their jacket alloy was the best hypothesis I could come up with. Grouped various Hornady, Speer and Noslers sub-MOA, couldn't even equal 3rd world military ball with any Sierra I tried. I'd give the Hornadys a try with your Tac and try the segregated brass.

 

[Ej3]

Invest in a chronograph. Use .223 load data. I think 24.0 to 25.0 will work fine for a 55 gr FMJ. For me, 25.0 gr TAC and 55 gr V-Max at 2.25” COL produced 2940 fps and 3/4” groups at 50 yds from a 16” barrel. This was using Lake City brass. No reason to worry about NATO speeds, IMO.

 

[Hondo 60]

At 25 yards, that extrapolates out into 6-8MOA which is truly awful. I suspect your barrel may not like that particular bullet.

Ding, ding, ding, ding!
I think we have a winner.

You didn't mention what the twist rate is for your barrel.
Might wanna look that one up.

And sometimes a recipe that works great in 1 gun, is truly awful in another.
I had a 9mm like that. It HATED 115gr bullets of any design.
I'd try other powders or other bullets.

Gee, just think it may take as many as a couple doz range trips to come up with somethin'.
Dont'cha just hate when that happens?

 

[Ej3]

I also picked up some Hornady 55 soft points. Gotta give those a shot, though I really want to at least halve the groups on these FMJs as well. Gonna try H335 and accurate 2520, if my order ships.

Would get some heavier pills as well, maybe up to 69 gr, but that's not quite so easy to do these days.

Midway has Hornady 75 gr Match HPBT bullets in stock. These work great with both TAC and A2520, at least in my experience. For H335 and 55gr FMJ, would be max 25.0 gr, depending on your brass and seating depth.

 

[AJC1]

How I would approach your situation.
1. Seperate by head stamp. This should equalize your case volume.
2. Weigh your test batch of cases and look for any outliers. In sorted cases they all should he within a grain.
3. Run a ocw test. This can be done with 3-5 rounds per charge weight. Run in .3 grain groups. Borrowing or using a buddies cronograph can really help here.
4. After you get your results find the edges of your "node" by loading in .1 grain steps.
5. Run Berger seating depth test.

If you are not seeing any promise by step 3 change powders. Tac is a good powder but there are tons of other options. If your long term plan is to try heavier bullets try some ar comp or h4895. Both are temprature stable and have a huge following. You might find this helpful.

 

[hardheart]

I would like to chrony the loads, but first I'd like a bit more confidence in not shooting any part of my shooting chrony and screens. Some of these hits are so bad I thought the scope had taken a dump. Once I get a good group I would like to measure velocity, hoping I'm good because I'm using published load data.

 

[mrawesome22-250]

I had a real picky barrel from PSA once. It absolutely hated any bullet under 60gr. Once I tried some 60gr and up bullets, it turned into a real shooter.

 

[slickracer]

How good is your rest? Reason I ask is I just got my first AR and front rest/bags that work fine for traditionally stocked rifles sucks for the AR.

 

[Charlie98]

Personally, I would try the same load without crimping. Beyond that, try a different bullet.

I have a Colt H-Bar with a 1:7 twist barrel, it generally dislikes anything 55grn, including factory.

 

[RainDodger]

Many, many variables. I would try a different bullet first. I generally shoot a 60 grain flat base varmint bullet for general shooting (Sierra 1375). You will find that a flat base bullet will usually be more accurate for you at anything up to around 400 yards. No need for a boat tail unless you're loading for longer range stuff. There is also no need to crimp, in my opinion. (Personally, the only 55 grain bullet I found that I have had any accuracy luck with are Bergers and they're definitely not cost effective for casual shooting.)

 

[Ej3]

Do what AJCI suggested by first separating by head stamp. You already have the bullets and powder, lower the charge to .223 specs and work up in .3 gr increments. Three rounds per load is fine for initial testing. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. I would start at 23.2 per Western Powders load data.



The chronograph is set up like 10-15 feet from the muzzle, so a small chance of hitting it. And besides, based on your M855 shots, you should feel confident that your scope and/or shooting method is not an issue.

 

[Blue68f100]

I suspect your running too hot by my notes. I ended up just over 26gr using tac and using 2.200" OAL. Also on a pencil barrel you need to allow it to cool to get any good consistent accuracy. Your Mil Spec chamber is good for the lighter bullets, unlike the Wydle chamber which prefers bullets weight >60 gr. Loose the LFCD. For the best way to check accuracy in a simi auto is to single feed them, so the feeding does not increase runout. Once you have a accurate load you can see the impact when fed from a magazine. If you can find the 53gr SMK give them a try around 26.0-26.2 gr with the tac.

 

[rdnktrkr]

I would drop the 55gr FMJ and try to find some 62gr SP, I have 2 - 20" ARs that shoot those great and my 16" shoots them better, I believe SP bullets are more accurate than FMJ, the only AR I have that prefers 55gr is an older Colt 20" 1in12. I found 2 accuracy "nodes", 1 just below max and 1 just below the middle using H335 and a very light crimp. When you start crimping overall length has to be consistent. OAL doesn't have to be 2.26, I load all my AR rnds closer to 2.20.

 

[Charlie98]

Also on a pencil barrel you need to allow it to cool to get any good consistent accuracy.

Actually, you bring up a very good point. I had a DPMS Oracle for a while, it had a lightweight barrel as well. When I was wringing it out, I sat down to test it for accuracy... so I slung it up and shot off my elbows... the sling tension moved the POI 6" low and left! Shooting offhand, it was fine, but any tension on the barrel moved them bullets around, that's for sure.

 

[Cemetery21]

When you do decide to try the chrono, take a very good look at your rifle from the side. The bullet exits the barrel much lower than the centerline of the scope! That means the bullet goes through the chrono (at 10-15 feet) lower than the aiming point you see in your scope, so please aim high enough that the bullet has room to clear the electronics. My first chrono was shot by a buddy about 10 seconds after I reminded him where the bullet exits the barrel. He wasn't thinking and it cost him a chrono. It's probably not a good idea to shoot groups while using a chrono, until you get very comfortable with what it takes to put a bullet through the sweet spot of the chrono screens.

 

[hardheart]

Thinking overall this is my plan.

Sort brass by stamp, length, weight to start
Load in 0.3 gr increments with 223 data, 3 rds at each charge weight (50% round count savings, I was doing 5 rds at 0.2 gr increments)
Load both the FMJ-BT (might as well, got plenty) and the flat based soft points to see which is more accurate.
Don't shoot my chronograph, lol. I generally set it up in front of a target after I've verified poi so I don't. But I've only done that with pistol rounds with a 7 yd target and the chrony at 10 ft.

 

[Blue68f100]

Is your barrel a Full Float or is the hand guard contacting the barrel around the gas block? If not free float make sure you set the rest in the same location each time.

Remember to allow the barrel to cool between shots. If it's too hot to touch you need to allow it to cool.

Recheck your scope mount to make sure nothing has loosened up. Torque screws to the correct torque and use LocTite.

 

[mjsdwash]

its not your brass, its your bullets. I love RMR, but three rifles i use wont shoot that exact bullet decent. 1 rifle i have will. my most accurate .223 gets 8"groups with that bullet. i missed a 100 yard steelplate 5 of 8 shots last week. went 10 for 10 with a savage rascal right after. My 11' shoots them OK, at 2600 fps..Maybe slow them down and see if it helps.

 

[Metal God]

Everyone’s talking about what type of Barrel what type of twist what type of rest what type of this what type of that .

I’ve got a question how did you arrive at your charge way ? I work up from minimum to maximum charge and I almost always find a really good load somewhere in there that shoots well in my rifle. Is the charge you are using the best grouping load you came up with during your load development ?

 

[hardheart]

I haven't arrived at a charge weight yet. I've done 7 spaced 0.2 grains apart with nothing close to an accuracy mode. Every single one has been so bad so far that I wanted to ask about it. Last trip had the one charge weight because I was only comparing it to the factory load to see how I shot both through the scope and red dot, plus weather severely limiting my time (the range closing early)

I at least feel a bit better reading about others having similar degrees of accuracy issues with certain combos. I'm obviously no benchrest shooter, just trying not to use all my primers trying to fix 6+ moa results when this Turkish stuff I got on clearance from Walmart groups at half that.

 

[AJC1]

Everyone’s talking about what type of Barrel what type of twist what type of rest what type of this what type of that .

I’ve got a question how did you arrive at your charge way ? I work up from minimum to maximum charge and I almost always find a really good load somewhere in there that shoots well in my rifle. Is the charge you are using the best grouping load you came up with during your load development ?

I would no go to deep as it appears he is in initial testing and is basically starting over. One would hope he reads and puts into practice what he has been given already. May be in overload already.