5.56x45 or .223 at long range

[Voodoochile]

Talking to a buddy last night about different calibers & what not & he told me that with his AR he can easily make 600 yard shots & that if it was necessary would feel confident of taking down BG's at that range.

I know that just like the .22LR the distance is over a mile but what would the effective range be for the 5.56x45/.223 round?

I'm thinking for that type of range I would want something with a bit more energy like a 7.62x51/.308 or similar round.

 

[jason41987]

depends on what your definition of effective is.. actually being able to hit the target, or still being relatively lethal, they could easily hit 600 yards but wont have much power left over at that range.. let me say it this way.. if i was going to hunt deer with it, id only do so with a 75 grain SST bullet, 1 in 7 inch twist barrel, and inside 300 yards

 

[Voodoochile]

My thoughts exactly.
Yes the round is capable of some impressive accuracy & may reach out there but by the ballistics that I've read at 500 yards you may have a touch over 400 ft.lbs. of energy left hence my thoughts of a 7.62x51/.308 for that range.

 

[Cee Zee]

My 1:9 twist barrel will fire 77 gr. rounds just fine. That's about the limit though. As far as the effective range goes I think the bullet being used and the length of the rifle barrel both have a big impact on how far a bullet can be effective. The department of defense lists the 77gr Black Hills Mk 262 as being capable of making kills (on humans) at 700 yards. And that's with a short barrel M4. Federal's 62gr Mk318 is said to fragment much better than pretty much anything else even from very short barrels making it very effective but I don't know at what distance. I believe it works pretty far. Other bullets are also effective. The thing is I've never seen any of those bullets on store shelves except the Black Hills stuff. I have some of it for use in my .223 varmint gun. It is very accurate in my rifle and seems to have a lot of energy at 500 yards which is the distance I usually shoot. My .223 has a 26" barrel though.

 

[ms6852]

If I recall properly, mind you it has been close to 2 decades since I retired from the Army.
with the M16/A2/3 550 meters and 800, with the m4 series I believe its 500 meters.

The effectiveness is all related to the shooter as well.

 

[Onewolf]

One of the guys in our long range field/match club shoots a 223 24" barrel with 77gr bullets. He is sometimes able to hit the targets from the 1000 yd platform but it looks more like he's shooting a mortar than a rifle. And if there's any sort of wind the 5.56/223 guys give up pretty quickly whereas us (smart ) 6.5 guys continue to hammer the targets from 600-1000yds.

 

[gondorian]

In good conditions 600 meters is very doable on a stationary man sized target. Personally I wouldn't be too confident with irons at that range but with optics it's easy. When you get that far out it's hard to ID targets unless they have an unnaturally high amount of contrast. Vitals hits could still be effective but at that range the bullet just doesn't have a lot of energy.

 

[Defc0n]

Having served a few years in the military myself, 600 yards is doable, even with iron sights. We had to qualify at 500 yards (10 rounds, slow fire) and I would typically hit 10/10 in the center of the target. Un-officially I have shot out further than 500, fairly accurately. With optics it gets even easier.

Being practical for a quick kill at that range is another question. People have survived many more than one shot at much closer ranges. This is of course assuming standard mil issued ammo/rifles. I'm sure you could find better options out there in .223 that carry more energy down-range, but I would opt for something a bit bigger myself.

 

[hardluk1]

Well if he thinks he's so good with it take him to task on paper targets at 600 yards. If hes a world class shooter at that distance take him coyote hunting as big game is way to far off to think about shooting at and make a ethical kill shot with a 223/556. A quality rifle ammo and shooter are good for 500 yard matchs. 600 yards is stretching it . Wind drift plays with it at long range even with 90gr bullets. .

 

[jmr40]

At one time USMC had to qualify at 500 yards with M-16's. I assume they still do. The round is used in 1000 yard matches.

At those ranges a 308 is going to have more energy and shoot flatter. Like everything there are compromises.

 

[Devilfrog]

Marine Corps rifle qualification includes 10 shots from 500 meters from prone, generally all bulleyes with standard issue M16A2. We did range comps with same rifles at 600 meters. May not hit with all that much power but it would hit.

 

[denton]

Yes, you can hit targets at 500 yards or more. In still air conditions, it can be done with boring regularity.

If you're going to hunt big game, there is an angle you have to think about: Bullets will not expand if they impact at too little speed. They will just "pencil through". That will kill a deer, but very slowly and painfully.

Standard cup and core bullets tend to require about 2100 FPS minimum at impact. One of the 55 grain loads I use maintains this speed out to 250 yards. By switching to premium bullets, I can still get expansion at 1800 FPS which happens at about 350 yards.

If you want your bullet to expand, those are about your effective range limits with a 55 grain bullet. If you are shooting prairie dogs, then it won't matter.

 

[BullSlinger]

As I recall from my Army days. The maximum effective range of the M16A1 rifle was 460 meters (iron sights). Seems to me that a shot of 600 yards is doable with a scope or eagle eyes.

 

[Cee Zee]

M193 was considered to be too destructive by NATO when they were first switching to 5.56 as a second round to 7.62. I suppose it's still pretty devastating as long as it tumbles or fragments. I have some of it around but I generally use other ammo for target shooting and plinking. I might think about using the M193 for varmint shooting though at fairly long distances (400 yards or so).

I don't think anyone believes 5.56/.223 is on par with .308 at 1000 yards and I don't get why someone always has to point that out. Do they think we're dumb as dog droppings or something? I bought a .223 mainly for plinking, some target shooting and varmint shooting and for another big reason - my neck injury gets tired of shooting 30 caliber stuff. I have a 30.06, which I know kicks more than .308 before the smart guys point it out for me, but it wears me out pretty quick. .308 doesn't wear me out as fast but I can't shoot it all day long like I can .223. When I go the range I want to be able to make the trip worthwhile. And besides that I have seen some great targets shot at 1000 yards with a .223. A kid won the junior division at Camp Perry a year or two ago using a .223. He put every round on the target. And the wind blows pretty strong along the lake at Camp Perry from what I hear. I've been to the area but not to the range. It was always windy there when I was in the area.

 

[fragout]

Talking to a buddy last night about different calibers & what not & he told me that with his AR he can easily make 600 yard shots & that if it was necessary would feel confident of taking down BG's at that range.

I know that just like the .22LR the distance is over a mile but what would the effective range be for the 5.56x45/.223 round?

I'm thinking for that type of range I would want something with a bit more energy like a 7.62x51/.308 or similar round.
================================================================

Here is some info I obtained first hand that might be helpful.

Info below averages were gathered under same EC's using the same chrono set at the same distance away from both muzzles on the same day.

Barrel info

223: 20in HBAR Wilson chrome lined
308: 18in std contour Criterion chome lined

Ammo info

223: 69gr Fed Match (BC = .300)
308: 168gr FED Sierra Matchking (BC = .464)

MV

223: 2950fps
308: 2650fps

Using the above info, I ran the numbers thru my ballistics program using the atmospheric conditions/elevation above sea level on that paticular day, and here is what it spit out.......

300 yards

223: 2099fps with 675 ft/lbs of energy
308: 2117fps with 1662 ft/lbs of energy

600 yards

223: 1424fps with 311 ft/lbs of energy
308: 1653fps with 1019 ft/lbs of energy

800 yards

223: 1123fps with 193 ft/lbs of energy
308: 1393fps with 724 ft/lbs of energy

1000 yards

223: 964fps with 142 ft/lbs of energy
308: 1188fps with 526 ft/lbs of energy

My questions would be the following......

1. What is your own maximum effective range with either cartridge concerning precise shot placement?

2. What is the target? Paper? Other? ( BG's = 2 legged critters, so I would hate it if your buddy defined me as one, then decided to shoot me with either caliber....lol)

3. Define your perspective of "effective"?

 

[BullfrogKen]

Well the NRA considers 600 yards just Mid-Range.

But yes, the .223 round will go out to 600 yards with accuracy. Most competitors are using 77 or 80 grain bullets back at the 600 yard line.

In field conditions where being off 25 yards at that distance means hitting or missing, not without a laser range finder. And a superb wind call.


The difference between being on a known distance range and out in the field cannot be underestimated.

 

[burrhead]

All I can say is google David Tubbs or Carl Bernosky.

Here's a good link for the basics of High Power competition.
http://www.6mmbr.com/highpowerbasics.html

 

[BullfrogKen]

I've not seen Carl bring a .223 out to a match I've shot alongside him in. He hasn't shot service rifle in a long time. Can't say the same for Tubb, but it would surprise me if he's playing the service rifle game, too.


Both those guys shoot match rifle. And the .223 just isn't competitive at all in MR.

 

[burrhead]

You're right BullfrogKen, I shouldn't have used High Power as an example. Service Rifle makes much more sense.

 

[BullfrogKen]

I've still seen some guys - and gals - at Perry do amazing things at 600 yards with the .223 in a Service Rifle.


I've competed in matches shooting next to Sherri Jo. She's phenomenal. Just trying to master one rifle competition discipline and win at Camp Perry - be it Service Rifle or Match Rifle - is tough enough. She is talented enough, and has put in the tremendous effort and dedication that it takes to enable her to win at both.

Sherri Jo Gallagher


And while winning the awards she has just by itself is an impressive feat that stands alone, needing no other comment, she's a genuine person to be around. Extremely humble, willing to help the new competitor on the line next to her, and just pleasant to spend a weekend shooting a match with.

 

[atomd]

There's a big difference between punching paper and damaging something. Technology advances and things change. Just look at the vld bullet choices in .223 that weren't around that long ago.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/05/223-remington-shooter-equals-gb-1000-yard-f-tr-record/

"At a recent Great Britain F-Class Association Match at the Blair Atholl Glen Tilt range, AccurateShooter Forum member Laurie Holland shot a 96-9V for twenty shots, tying the British F-TR single match record. Laurie accomplished that feat with a Savage-actioned .223 Remington. Laurie proved that the little .223 Rem can be competitive, even at 1000 yards."

If I wanted to destroy something at 1000 yards....no....the .223 would not be my first choice. Is it accurate at that distance? Obviously it can be under certain conditions.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Given the limitations in F-TR class, an exceptionally skilled shooter can certainly make it competitive against others in the same class. In Open class, the .223 just isn't competitive against the better LR calibers that exist.


It'll stand up at 600 yards and make good hits for a skilled rifleman, one who knows wind. If I had to go afield with something at that range, it wouldn't be a .223.


If I had to engage . . . how did the OP put it . . . BGs? Bad Guys at 600 yards? Well I really do have a tough time imagining circumstances as a civilian where engaging someone at 600 yards would be justified. Not saying it would never happen. I am saying it would be so rare as to be extremely tough to imagine a justifiable circumstance.


And if I had one, I'd really pick something else.

 

[atomd]

I agree Ken. Yeah, FTR is a very limited scope of things. I was just using that as an example that yes, it can be accurate at that distance. Is it the best? I wouldn't say so....but the reason I posted that was because so many people use the old standard that the round isn't accurate beyond 500 yards. That's just not true. These days it seems that anything at 600 or beyond is dominated by the 6-6.5. But that is for punching paper. In the real world when you need to put the hurt on the something way out there...you're not using .223 and you're not using 6-6.5 stuff either. There's gonna be a .30 cal + bullet flying real fast way out there with a lot of recoil and a lot of downrange damage. That's just the way it is. It's not something that most people would ever factor into a self defense situation because it just doesn't happen.

 

[Voodoochile]

Agreed, at 600+ yards it would have to be a war going on around me for me to attempt a shot like that at a living person & I would hope my buddy would feel the same way.

From the comments stated earlier, I stand corrected in that the .223 round can be capable of accurate hits
At those ranges but the energy level would be quite diminished at those ranges.

 

[Cee Zee]

My post about the .223 being effective at medium distances on people was more of a reference to a battle situation than a BG situation. I've seen several posts on this board recently where people who actually fought in Afghanistan and Iraq (I think Iraq anyway) used a 5.56 at 600 yards and used it effectively. It is true that a situation like that would be very rare in this country but I have actually seen a few places where it would be useful. For example my cousin lives on the farm and when he stopped a group of ATV riders from crossing our property at least one of them shot up his house from about 300 yards. They were on top of a hill when they did it. If I had seen this happening and I happened to be on the next hill over I would have maybe fired at their position to stop them from shooting up the house. That distance would be about 600 yards. And the hill I would be on would be higher than the hill they were on.

There are some other scenarios where firing from that same hill might become necessary. If someone pulled up the gate to the farm and starting firing at the house and I was on that same hill I would likely fire back then too. That would be about a 700 yard shot but the drop in altitude would give the bullets a lot more terminal energy.

This stuff is pretty far fetched and highly unlikely. But it is possible. Our neighbor filed a lawsuit against us trying to get a right of way across out property which would have led to a drunkards paradise camp site being built with all their traffic going across our land. That guy threatened us with violence and he is literally a cut throat of the lowest order. Yes I know that he cut someone's throat. I believe he's done worse than that. He's also maybe the best shooter I ever saw. It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that he would pull up to that gate and open fire.

It is possible folks. It just isn't very likely.

And once again I don't think anyone really thinks a .223 will do the same damage a 30 caliber rifle will do at 600 yards or more. I don't see the point of people trying to prove that. It's like trying to prove that gravity exists. Sure you can prove it but who doesn't already know about it?

I know the OP said he might go with a .308 for more pop at medium distances but the question was about the effective range of the .223/5.56. There are many variables in that question like how far is far and what does the OP mean by "effective" and what rifle will you be using and what ammo and what barrel length and wind conditions etc. etc. etc..

Being a fairly long term reader of this site I have learned that the answer to the question (which caliber to use) being bounced around here is of course, get both! That's what I did.