5-Shot Snub: Enough Gun?

[.38 Special]

Hyperbole/humor aside, it's not so much about assuming that there will be multiple motivated attackers as acknowledging the reality that criminals do often have accomplices, that not all violent criminals will immediately run at the sight of a gun, and that it often takes more than one shot (sometimes even more than one hit) to stop an attacker.

Just as it's incorrect to assume that all violent crime involves multiple determined attackers, it's incorrect to assume that all criminals operate alone and will give up at the first sign of resistance.

The problem with this topic is that most people can't be satisfied with making this true statement: "Realistically, this weapon combined with my skillset mean that I can effectively respond to only <this> specific subset of the spectrum of violent crime. I realize that, and am comfortable with it."

Instead, they want to do one or more of the following:

• Inflate the capability of the weapon
  
• Inflate their skill set
• Exaggerate the likelihood of "easily won" violent encounters
• Downplay the likelihood of "difficult" violent encounters
• Question the sanity of those who choose a different level of preparation whether it's above or below the level they choose.

When I am carrying my "deep concealment" carry pistol, there's no question that I'm limiting the overall capability of the "system" that is the combination of my skillset and my carry weapon. It would be foolish for me to think that I have the same capability as when I have more flexibility in my mode of dress and am therefore carrying a gun that's much larger, has much better sights, more ammunition on board, a better trigger and that is much more easily accessible. With the latter, I can make my first hit on target much faster, make followup shots much faster and more accurately, get good hits on targets farther away from me and keep shooting longer. That doesn't mean I'll need all those things just because that's the gun I have on hand, just as it doesn't mean I won't need them if I'm carrying my little "deep concealment" handgun.

I agree with most of that, but I'm not sure about the "most people" bit. I suspect that few of us really believe that our gun - any gun - will get us out of any imaginable scrape. In other words, we all understand that some fights are unwinnable.

Moreover, I argue that you've got #3 and #4 a little backwards, in that the great majority of violent encounters are not initiated by groups of skilled and commited men. I argue that it is the hi-cap boys who are misled.

Regardless, I think #5 sums it up - though I obviously am guilty of some fun-making. My down-deep belief is that we each are best at determining our own needs, and should be let alone to do it.

 

[JimCunn]

"Because snubs are quite a bit more difficult to hit with".

I don't follow. I've been using a J-frame as primary for over 60 years and so far, haven't noticed that.

 

[trackskippy]

Speaking from a high cap standpoint, its not just multiple skilled or unskilled opponents, which these days does seem to be a trend, its the reality that you may well not be shooting up at the top of your game level, and even if you are getting some solid hits, it doesnt mean they are stopping and just falling down dead, they may not even know theyve been shot, and you very well may need to keep shooting.

Also considering that if you're shooting, youre likely not shooting single rounds and assessing, or at least I dont shoot like that, rounds number two and three are likely already on the way and right behind round number one, so with a 5 round gun, you find your pulling clicks pretty quick if things dont seem to be working like you think they should.

 

[.38 Special]

"Because snubs are quite a bit more difficult to hit with".

I don't follow. I've been using a J-frame as primary for over 60 years and so far, haven't noticed that.

You can group as well and as quickly with a snub as with a full sized gun, at 25 or 50 yards?

 

[.38 Special]

Speaking from a high cap standpoint, its not just multiple skilled or unskilled opponents, which these days does seem to be a trend, its the reality that you may well not be shooting up at the top of your game level, and even if you are getting some solid hits, it doesnt mean they are stopping and just falling down dead, they may not even know theyve been shot, and you very well may need to keep shooting.

Also considering that if you're shooting, youre likely not shooting single rounds and assessing, or at least I dont shoot like that, rounds number two and three are likely already on the way and right behind round number one, so with a 5 round gun, you find your pulling clicks pretty quick if things dont seem to be working like you think they should.

I do not think of it as skill but rather dedication. It does not appear that criminals in general are up for hanging around and trading shots with their intended victims, but rather tend to scatter like roaches as soon as the specter of armed resistance appears.

That is not to say that otherwise cannot happen, but rather how often it does, and how willing a fellow is to prepare for it.

 

[JimCunn]

....."if things dont seem to be working like you think they should".....

That reminds me of a story about my Dad. He was carrying a saturday night special at his store, and it bugged me so I insisted that he carry my J-frame. He did, as a favor to me. But unknownst to me, he was carrying my J as a backup in his left trousers pocket and the SNS in his right.

A guy came in and swung a knife at him. He fell back, kicking the burglar alarm switch and drew the SNS to shoot the guy in the shoulder to make him drop the knife. The SNS misfired, so he drew my J left handed and made the shoulder shot. The Sheriff was telling me about it later and mentioned what a good shot it was. That night I quoted the Sheriff to my Dad and he said, " Hmmph, it was terrible shooting. I shot your pistol twice and missed the second shot".

So he had two things go south on him. That's two more than you need.

 

[trackskippy]

I do not think of it as skill but rather dedication. It does not appear that criminals in general are up for hanging around and trading shots with their intended victims, but rather tend to scatter like roaches as soon as the specter of armed resistance appears.

That is not to say that otherwise cannot happen, but rather how often it does, and how willing a fellow is to prepare for it.

Yea, so we're constantly told, but there are a ton of videos just over on YouTube that show thats not always the case too. Quite a few of those recorded gunfights seem to show dedication and deliberation in the aggressors. Not all of them are running "away".

And add to that, for a lot of those criminals, its not their first "live" rodeo, and what they may lack in skill, they do have experience, and "throwing the first punch" in most cases going for them. Im assuming thats not likely the case for anyone that looked like a target to someone used to picking a target and chose them.

I just think a lot of people are woefully lacking in any kind of realistic preparation for this sort of thing, and dont prepare/practice at all realistically for it. Theres a big difference in shooting tight little groups at a bullseye target at you leisure, and shooting from the draw and doing so in any kind of dynamic manner.

 

[JimCunn]

"You can group as well and as quickly with a snub as with a full sized gun, at 25 or 50 yards?".

No. A hundred feet was about my limit. When young, my eyes were 20/15 and 20/12, which helped. Now, after cataract surgery they are about 20/30 and I can't change their focal length - which doesn't help. But it doesn't help with the full sized guns either. I still practice mostly at 50 and 100 feet.

 

[.38 Special]

Yea, so we're constantly told, but there are a ton of videos just over on YouTube that show thats not always the case too. Quite a few of those recorded gunfights seem to show dedication and deliberation in the aggressors. Not all of them are running "away".

And add to that, for a lot of those criminals, its not their first "live" rodeo, and what they may lack in skill, they do have experience, and "throwing the first punch" in most cases going for them. Im assuming thats not likely the case for anyone that looked like a target to someone used to picking a target and chose them.

I just think a lot of people are woefully lacking in any kind of realistic preparation for this sort of thing, and dont prepare/practice at all realistically for it. Theres a big difference in shooting tight little groups at a bullseye target at you leisure, and shooting from the draw and doing so in any kind of dynamic manner.

All of us are unprepared for all sorts of things. You may remember the San Diego fellow who stole a tank a few decades back and caused all manner of trouble with it. I was and continue to be unprepared for such an event, as I consider it unlikely and don't wish to burden myself with the necessary equipment.

And that's my whole point: we are weighing probabilities (hopefully we are, anyway) and coming to our own decisions. Fellows who are concerned about multiple, dedicated attackers are welcome to prepare for them, while other fellows who think that scenario too unlikely are welcome not to bother. Fun-making aside, I think we ought to let them.

 

[defjon]

Hyperbole/humor aside, it's not so much about assuming that there will be multiple motivated attackers as acknowledging the reality that criminals do often have accomplices, that not all violent criminals will immediately run at the sight of a gun, and that it often takes more than one shot (sometimes even more than one hit) to stop an attacker.

Just as it's incorrect to assume that all violent crime involves multiple determined attackers, it's incorrect to assume that all criminals operate alone and will give up at the first sign of resistance.

The problem with this topic is that most people can't be satisfied with making this true statement: "Realistically, this weapon combined with my skillset mean that I can effectively respond to only <this> specific subset of the spectrum of violent crime. I realize that, and am comfortable with it."

Instead, they want to do one or more of the following:

• Inflate the capability of the weapon
  
• Inflate their skill set
• Exaggerate the likelihood of "easily won" violent encounters
• Downplay the likelihood of "difficult" violent encounters
• Question the sanity of those who choose a different level of preparation whether it's above or below the level they choose.

When I am carrying my "deep concealment" carry pistol, there's no question that I'm limiting the overall capability of the "system" that is the combination of my skillset and my carry weapon. It would be foolish for me to think that I have the same capability as when I have more flexibility in my mode of dress and am therefore carrying a gun that's much larger, has much better sights, more ammunition on board, a better trigger and that is much more easily accessible. With the latter, I can make my first hit on target much faster, make followup shots much faster and more accurately, get good hits on targets farther away from me and keep shooting longer. That doesn't mean I'll need all those things just because that's the gun I have on hand, just as it doesn't mean I won't need them if I'm carrying my little "deep concealment" handgun.

It isn't necessarily any of those considerations though. Have we ever seen any civilian ccw'er carrying a snub nose engaged by multiple threats who ran dry and was unable to address the other threats who remained in the fight, in a situation that would have been won due to more rounds on tap?

I'm comfortable with my set up and carry. I've carried more, I've carried less. This is my goldilocks. I don't Inflate anything, I don't conflate anything.

I am realistic about all of this though. Three armed bad guys with no quit, just like I said the last time this thread rolled around--- you're probably still dead whether you've a j frame or a g17. We are none of us john wick.

Remember a year ago or in Florida I believe, multiple folks kicked in a guys door at 3 am. He was playing video games. Glock jams up so good after the FIRST SHOT it is no longer in the equation for him. He had a Kriss vector nearby and that saw him through the encounter.

Angels dancing on the heads of pins. Carry what you will. Don't assume it makes you any better prepared, necessarily. Bullets are bullets. Choose a platform that works for you, and put them where they need to go.

It's very sad because due to liability etc, I think a lot of posters have to shoot on strict static shooting lanes. They don't get to point shoot, shoot while retreating, draw and shoot, roll around in the muck in 100 degrees, in ten degrees, In ice, covered by skeeters. Shooting like this can really open your eyes to what your chosen platform can do under various conditions.

I've got a lot of modern options and a lot of nostalgic options.

The micro 9mms are over for me. Too heavy and awkard to carry the way i carry a j frame, too many right angles that read "gun", too awnry. If I'm belt carrying I'd rather have my 1911, model 10, or maybe 686 or 226. For the pocket, give me a j frame. Deep concealment, lcp. Different tools for different jobs.

I say carry the best tool for the given job at hand, and what you can carry with the most confidence because you've trained the most with it in under many different situations. You want to be as confident as possible in your chosen platform and ammunition. After many years I know exactly where my chosen load prints and point of aim. I don't begrudge anyone their choice.

More rounds on tap certainly isn't a bad thing. We can all definitely admit there might be situations where having more than 5/6/7 before a reload would be advantageous.

 

[.38 Special]

"You can group as well and as quickly with a snub as with a full sized gun, at 25 or 50 yards?".

No. A hundred feet was about my limit. When young, my eyes were 20/15 and 20/12, which helped. Now, after cataract surgery they are about 20/30 and I can't change their focal length - which doesn't help. But it doesn't help with the full sized guns either. I still practice mostly at 50 and 100 feet.

That was my point: snubs are harder to hit with, at least beyond a certain distance. Now, that may not be significant for the situations you envision, but it could be for others. For example, were I faced with a Greenwood Mall scenario - coming up against a rifleman at 40 yards - I would far rather have a target piece than a snub. Whether that sort of thing is worth preparing for in general, of course, is best left up to each individual.

 

[nugi]

Sounds like my collage days.

Weird, curious what you were collaging

 

[JimCunn]

No argument 38, but I'd still stick with the Airweight J. I don't hunt anymore, but back in the day I used a J for squirrel and rabbit hunting. I probably still would (BTW, I didn't hit the little suckers every shot back then and probably wouldn't hit them at all now). But you dance with the gurl what brung you - and for me that's J-frames.

 

[Kleanbore]

It does not appear that criminals in general are up for hanging around and trading shots with their intended victims, but rather tend to scatter like roaches as soon as the specter of armed resistance appears.

Do you have basis for that belief?

 

[.38 Special]

Do you have basis for that belief?

You have asked that repeatedly over the years and always ignore my replies. Why is that?

<edit> On the off-chance that this time will be different, the answer is that I have been reading about and watching videos of armed encounters for decades. You can do the same thing. If nothing else, check out the NRA's "Armed Citizen" reports, available in their magazines and online, and note the monotonous regularity with which "fled on foot" appears. As I continue to point out, there are exceptions - but they are exceptions to the norm.

 

[crstrode]

Woe is me - Now I'm worried about multiple fires simultaneously striking my house that re-ignite even after being extinguished.

Where can I get a long-barrel semi-auto fire extinguisher with an extended magazine?

 

[Kleanbore]

You have asked that repeatedly over the years and always ignore my replies. Why is that?

Refresh my memory.

But let me be more clear: while assailants may not be "hanging around trading shots",

1. the number of shots that may needed to effect a timely physical stop cannot be predicted, and
2. we cannot know whether a second assailant will turn and run when the first is fired upon; he may not have that option.

 

[.38 Special]

Refresh my memory.

But let me be more clear: while assailants may not be "hanging around trading shots",

1. the number of shots that may needed to effect a timely physical stop cannot be predicted, and
2. we cannot know whether a second assailant will turn and run when the first is fired upon; he may not have that option.

That is certainly true, but is no more or less an argument against a snub than it is against an M60: there are some fights that we are not going to win. How far you are willing to go down that particular rabbit hole is up to you, and everyone else making the same decisions.

 

[Blue Jays]

"…Sounds like my collage days…"

You attended an art school? They are frequently located in urban centers. Hopefully you had a gun.

 

[.38 Special]

No argument 38, but I'd still stick with the Airweight J. I don't hunt anymore, but back in the day I used a J for squirrel and rabbit hunting. I probably still would (BTW, I didn't hit the little suckers every shot back then and probably wouldn't hit them at all now). But you dance with the gurl what brung you - and for me that's J-frames.

A 4" K frame was my daily carry for many years. It has been supplanted quite recently by two very different guns: a compact Glock in 10mm, with a dot sight, and a tiny S&W 340PD in .357 Magnum. They both are well-suited to their individual roles - but I certainly know which one I'd rather have in a long range gunfight!

 

[JimCunn]

For a long range gunfight, I'd rather have a fast pair of tennis shoes.

These days, I lighten up my three Airweights with a titanium .357 Mag cylinder reamed for 9mm and add an old Herrett Shooting Star grip to help control the recoil pain to my thumb. I'm addicted to the 637-2 because I usually make my first shot single action (an emotional relic of learning to draw and shoot with SAA revolvers about 70 years ago).

 

[WrongHanded]

If the original Model-T Ford were an option for the ambulance to rush you to the ER operating room to save your life, would you choose that over a modern vehicle specifically designed to do that exact job?

We're talking about a life and death emergency where every second matters. There are far better options available at the gun store, which are no heavier or bulkier but have better sights, better triggers, higher capacity, faster reloads, and frequently superior terminal ballistics for the recoil.

If you already own, are familiar with, and know how to shoot a 5 shot snub nosed revolver, keep on keeping on. If you're choosing a new sub compact handgun for defensive use, leave the romance behind and advance with pragmatism.

 

[JimCunn]

"advance with pragmatism"

That's why I stick with the J-frame.
My concession to modern times is that I now convert them to 9mm and moon clips to speed up ejection and reloading.

 

[defjon]

I think that's fair enough. Just starting, a newbie would be better served by a micro 9mm vs an airweight or lcr.

I do think the lightweight revolver offers many benefits to a dedicated user.

I HATED and even traded my very first airweight. I shot a g26 or bersa thunder 100% better.

If you are willing to put in the time and pain, yes, pain, you can reap the benefits of the platform. I've found a hold that makes standard pressure and most +p pleasant to work with. I use the factory grips. Staging the trigger and learning the POI will allow you to reach out quite a ways. I would take a shot at 40, 50 yards with MY j frame because I've practiced that shot thousands of times from multiple positions, free hand, prone, behind cover, moving, etc.

If you want to be a student of the snub, as suggested before, a j frame in 22lr is a good idea.

I would not take that shot with my lcp, or formerly my hellcat or ec9. The fixed barrel snubbies are capable of incredible accuracy!

 

[defjon]

Movies and Hollywood suck, we all acknowledge this, but check out Way of the Gun if you haven't.

Pretty great shoot outs, and multiple dedicated users of different platforms.

The protagonists utilize the 1911. They are 9mm models IRL, but meant to be 45 acp in the film I believe.

Two body guards utilize HK 9mms, sleek tactical bros.

And then there are the old guys who have been there and done that. They use snub nose 38s. I spotted tauri, smith's, and the main guy (James Caan uses a 640 I think). Reloads individual rounds from pockets.

Very interesting tactics/shoot outs.

I don't want to ruin it and spoil the ending by telling you who prevails...but...