.50 rifle ban...worth fighting?

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I think the OP point was how to best use our limited resources. It seems to me that we have the resources to fight every attack as they come. Hunting rifles are not currently threatened, so put the money where the threat actually is. Right now that is .50 cal, AWB, and concealed carry.
 
It seems to me that from a purely financial aspect the best use of our resources is ALWAYS to fight for the most limited aspect firearms. If we beat the grabbers and associated psychotics and hangers-on on such "marginal" items then attempts at restricting more common items are pre-ordained for failure.

It's the whittling away that defeats us. That and people unwilling to defend against what doesn't directly affect them at the moment.
 
You must obviously support banning whale-tails and racing stripes on import cars. They are tools of street-racers, and we would all be better off if people couldn't race on public roads :banghead:

You are completely oblivious to the obvious. WHY ban .50's, or the registration of new MG's? Instead of saying the NRA needs to give up fighting these useless legislations, why don't you turn around and convince the VPC that there is no need to ban these weapons.

Its kinda like saying that we need to ban mini-skirts, because without them, there would be less prostitution. And no one really needs a mini-skirt.
 
WT has made a valid point along the lines I'm thinking. Very few people own these weapons, for very practical reasons.

I consider "sporting use" to include a firearm able to be used on a safe rifle range up to say, 1.000 yards (I've fired in the NRA and Army matches, iron sights)...but there are VERY few public ranges beyond 500-yds. Practical hunting ranges are up to about 500-yds for a skilled marksman, though few hunters will shoot more than 300-yds. .50's have enough power that one can easily cause unintended damage with them...incendiary and tracer ammo are available (and fun!), and can easily start fires. 610-grain AP slugs don't stop easily, and ricochet a long way in rocky country.

Let's turn this around...where do YOU think the line should be drawn? I've enjoyed the challenges of shooting mortars and high explosive weapons...a lot of fun! I suppose setting off a nuclear device would be quite a kick, also. But who is most likely to employ these weapons? Not the average citizen down the street...but do you truly think anyone should be freely allowed to do what they please, without any controls?

The point I was trying to make is that wasting political good well fighting for something truly "off the wall" sacrifices credibility...and we're going to need all we can get in future political battles.

I don't agree with the argument that "it's another sequential step toward taking away all our guns." Folks, take another look at these .50s. They are not anywhere NEAR the class of firearms such as semi-automatic rifles, pistols, and shotguns useful to the average citizen for hunting, range use, or self defense. They are very heavy, unweildy, weapons best carried in a vehicle, impractical except for long range destruction, with very few places where they can be fired safely. This is NOT the place to waste our political credibility. :fire:
 
doesnt matter what the use is for, its our rights that are being taken away not just the calibers.
 
where do YOU think the line should be drawn
I might take some crap for saying this, but I would be comfortable if the line was drawn right where we are now. Stick with the laws we have and don't create ANY new ones unless that law is to repeal another.
 
"Where do you think the line should be drawn?"

I think it should be drawn where someone commits a crime with such a weapon, other than mere possession. I shouldn't have to justify owning any weapon. Maybe I like to shoot it, maybe I think it looks neat sitting in my living room, maybe I'm preparing for the upcoming alien mutant zombie bear invasion, or maybe it's nobody's d--n business unless I use it to assault, murder rob, whatever!

My $.02, YMMV, IANAL,etc,etc.
 
Having gone to a conference of 2nd Amendment scholars - on the order of Don Kates, etc. - I will inform you that they think a 50 BMG is exactly an instance of the slippery slope technique I mentioned before and that such a ban should be imposed.

Given the lack of any real data indicating a serious risk from these guns, to give in on that is so foolish as to boogle the mind.

They are exactly near the semis. "The ARs, 308s, AKs, etc. are all military weapons and have no use in a sporting society." Haven't heard that before - have we?

What use does a hunter have for a rifle that can fire more than two shots?

One does have to draw decision rules. Civilians having nukes or mortars is something that I wouldn't support as they are truly qualitatively different from the continuum of the 50 BMG to the 22Short.

A ban on 50's is just a start.
 
So it's ok for Police Departments and the military to have them, but not the folks for whom the 2nd Amendment was written? Can you say "disparity of force"? The 2nd was written for one thing and one thing only: to give the people the ability to stop tyrannical government. Not hunting, not IDPA events.
As has been already stated, the anti's will never quit until we are completely disarmed. Witness: NFA, GCA, AWB, 50BMG ban........>
It will never end unless we put a stop to it!
 
...useful to the average citizen for hunting, range use, or self defense.

Where in the Constitution does it say anything about hunting, range use, or self defense? That's not why RKBA is enumerated in the Bill of Rights. :banghead:
 
Did we forget the other 50-ban thread (locked) from just a few weeks ago?

While it's a little overkill, you can sure shoot 50's safely on all the 200 yard public ranges. By the same line of logic, 7RM, 300WM, 338RUM, 338LM, are all "overkill" for those ranges also. The 750gr AMAX target bullet is lightly constructed and fragments quickly in normal dirty backstops.

You might as well roll over and defend only Tasers, single shot 30-30's, and double barrel shotguns. Constitutionally guaranteed rights are not limited to "for hunting" or "for self defense"-- they are for any purpose including enjoyment.

-z
 
Actually

I can't think of a good reason for the LAPD to own Barrett 82A1 .50's. I can however think of a good reason for me to own one, cause I want to. And thats a good enough reason. Im not asking any of you to pay for my .50. The LAPD asks taxpayers to foot the bill on theirs. Are we gonna give them the go ahead when they want to mount miniguns on their fleet of helicopters? How about Hellfires?

None of us should have to justify a "need". But the Government should justify to us their need before asking us to pay the bill.

I think we should fight any atempt to ban weapons. We should also be moving to the offense and try to get bad laws repealed. I for one would like to be able to go down to my local dealer and purchase a full auto without anymore hassle than if I was buying a .22 target rifle. I would also like to be able to purchase suppressors and short barreled rifles/shotguns without hassle and undue expense.
 
If we worried about losing credibility then we would not fight for semi-automatic rifles (evil baby killing assault weapons), pistols (saturday night specials), shotguns (streetsweepers, alley brooms), revolvers (super powerful magnums made for punching through body armor), bolt action rifles (sniper rifles)... Get the point?

You are letting the other side decide what is credible and what is not. When you do that, you lose. When you let the opponent determine the rules and define the game, then you lose.

Your flawed logic about the danger of .50s could just as easily be applied to every other type and classification of firearm. Pistols are concealable. Semi automatic weapons are made for shooting up crowds. Deer rifles are really for sniping innocent people. Are you beginning to see the problem with your idea?

We have to fight every single infringement. If the governemnt went after $100,000 Perazzis, should I just throw up my hands and say, "aw shucks, that thar is jus some rich folks gun. Don't matter to me none." Bull. Absolute bull.

Your argument about the .50 is just as wrong. Every point you make about their danger can be applied to about any heavy rifle. A .300 Win can richochet too. Big whoop. A .338 Lapua will reach out there just as far, and the only thing the .50 has on it is hard target penetration. Heck, let's let them ban that too.

Bringing in mortars and nuclear weapons is a smoke screen. Where do you draw the line indeed? That has nothing to do with your original argument. Fact of the matter is, since none of us have howitzers in our garages, that is a moot point. However we do have .50s. And there are a lot more out there than a hundred.

The original AWB passed because AW owners were a small minority, who could get picked on. An AK has a lot less "credibility" with your average news watching suburban voter than a .50. Was passing the AWB right then? No of course not. So why would passing the .50 ban be the right thing now?

As for dividing our resources, and quotes from French generals, the gun lobby has the ability to take all comers, and beat all challenges. Sniveling to the VPC and trying to keep "credibility" is when we lose.
 
Those who would disarm us have not exhibited a tendency to compromise; they are energetic, relentless and opportunistic.

The point I was trying to make is that wasting political good well fighting for something truly "off the wall" sacrifices credibility

Personally, I think that's a good point - especially since it should apply equally well to the VPC. However, I don't see Tom Diaz stressing over using up his political goodwill to outlaw a weapon that can't reasonably be concealed, costs a lot and isn't even a blip on the "crime gun" radar. Why isn't he worried about looking like he's trying to attack on all fronts but we're worried about defending on all fronts?

The fifty just happens to be a target of opportunity, easily demonized in the current climate. Sixteen years ago it was a stamped steel, neutered AK in California; six years ago a cheap carbine and handgun in a Colorado school - remember then? The rally cry:

Too cheap
Lightweight
Easily concealed
holds too many rounds
spray fire
inaccurate

Fast forward, long range rifle found in a terrorist cave -

Expensive
Heavy
Not concealable
Holds one to five rounds
deliberate fire
extremely accurate

Notice a pattern? Me neither. I guess they just don't like any guns.

Before Stockton? Saturday night specials.
Not many on this forum mourn the loss of Jennings / Bryco / Lorcin. But they're gone. Somebody won and somebody lost.

Where would I personally draw the line? Maybe 1910. The Sullivan act was 1911, right? I've grown to accept GCA '68 but if you weren't alive between '63 and '68 you'd be wrong to assume that your precious scope-sighted sporting purpose rifle wasn't in the proverbial crosshairs. Reforming the distribution channel was a compromise.

In my last discussion with an MMM'r I declared that, contrary to popular opinion, I was amenable to compromise. Compromise means both sides give something.

Take the .50, repeal the full auto restrictions. All the blood drained out of her head - they have a different definition of compromise - something along the lines of:

We want them all - give us the **fillintheblank** (currently .50's) and we'll let you relax for a week or so.

I don't see the compromise in that solution - it's a loss, plain and simple.

Having said all that, I sympathize - I'm worn out too. The end of the AWB took all I had. I bought raffle tickets from FCI and re-upped my annual membership in FCSA. I don't own a .50, don't particularly want one. I'm not writing my state legislature - 'course I don't have to - I live in Texas :D

I also understand that a lot of people can't see the connection between a Serbu BFG-50 and Dakota '76 as it applies to the VPC. It's a lot like those "optical illusion" things that occasionally show up in magazines - you know, a jumbled up mess of colors that you're supposed to look at, focus beyond the page, hold your mouth just right, but you just can't see the picture they're talking about? Then, suddenly, it pops into focus and you can see it perfectly - then a funny thing happens. Every time subsequently that you look at that jumbled up mess, the picture immediately pops out - somehow you can't NOT see it anymore. Don't worry - it'll come. Hope to see you on the FCSA member roll soon!
 
Divide and Conquer

TooTaxed,

Politicians can accomplish MUCH more by gradually eroding our personal freedoms, than by an outright assault on them. While an outright assault is easily recognized for what it is and quickly defeated, appealing to common sense by promoting "reasonable" restrictions that some people might find acceptable, works much better.

The 2nd amendment has nothing to do with sporting purposes.....it lays out the RIGHT of a free American citizen to keep and bear arms, period, the end. Once we start accepting conditions and restrictions on that right, we've started the process of surrendering that right.

The 2nd amendment protects all of the other articles in the Bill of Rights - without it, the articles may as well be just a piece of paper, without a means of defense by the people they're designed to protect.

Why 80 million gun owners and only 4 million NRA members? Because too many people have already started thinking in this fashion "I own a gun, but I don't agree with everything the NRA does..." When was the last time you agreed with everything anyone said/did, including your own family? That said, I am glad that you've opted to continue your NRA membership - we need each and every one of us.

I may never own a .50 cal, but I'll debate unyielding, my RIGHT to own one.

Michael
 
"Where do you think the line should be drawn?"

Well that's easy--right where the Framers drew it in the first place.

I'm hardly a Constitutional scholar, but I can read. Their original intent was to allow "Everyman" to own the same weapons as the professional soldier had access to in the course of his normal duties. Remember that the Revolutionary War was only shortly past and very fresh in their minds. They understood at a gut level that if they had not owned muskets, rifles, swords and bayonets, the revolution would have been over before it started.

As times have changed and the armaments of the soldier have changed, so too should what we keep in our homes should have changed. At his point in history, if we strictly followed the original intent of the Framers, we would be able to have M-4s, M-16s, the SAW, M2s, hand grenades, light mortars and antitank weapons. (Sorry, no nukes. Infantry weapons only.)

I can hear some of you now--"Light mortars? Antitank wepaons? This guy is a loon!" :what: Maybe. But if you believe that the 2nd Ammendment is there to act as "the reset button on the Constitution" (I love that phrase--who said it first?), then those are the weapons you would need. Remember who you would be fighting.

God gave me the right to have weapons. The 2nd enshrines it into our most basic law. You give up any part of it at your hazzard.
 
I'll give up 50's if I get the right to kill every anti that comes along claiming we don't need weapons. Won't take too long until we can have 50's again in peace and quiet.
 
I can hear some of you now--"Light mortars? Antitank wepaons? This guy is a loon!" Maybe.

I have to disagree here. The framers wanted us to be armed with the same style weapons that would be issued to a single foot soldier. Light mortars and anti-tank are things that are issued to squads and not a lone soldier.

Even the .50 is a stretch as it is basically a two man weapon. One to carry the ammo and spotting scope, the other to carry the weapon itself. It is an attractive weapon for militia use IMHO. It should not be banned, but much more powerful than a .50 is not something I can support. Even grenades are a bit over the top.
 
How soon we forget...

1. Waco
2. Ruby Ridge
3. Janet Reno and the Elian Gonzalez affair
4. Clinton's Assault Weapons Ban (For The Children)
5. Sen. Ted Kennedy's '04 legislation (mercifully defeated) that would have "banned" evil rifles/ammo (like the common 30-30, and other "sporting" guns) simply because they easily defeat/penetrate ordinary (Level II) "bullet-proof" police vests.
6. The Ballistic Illiterates' ongoing (and factually-bankrupt) rants about Cop-Killer Bullets, Saturday Night Specials, etc., ad nauseum.
7. Various liberal/politically-correct cities' efforts to "ban" ALL semi-automatics... only to discover that they've now disarmed their own police forces (e.g., West Hollywood, CA).

"If someone is so fearful that they're going to start using their weapons (just) to protect their rights... it makes me very nervous...
-- U.S.Congressman Henry Waxman, D-California (Beverly Hills/Hollywood)

"We're going to have to take some things away from you on behalf of the common good."
-- U.S. Senator Hillary Clinton, D-NY (speaking at a party fund-raiser in California, 2004
 
TooTaxed,

Let's look at your argument point by point:

I consider "sporting use" to include a firearm able to be used on a safe rifle range up to say, 1.000 yards (I've fired in the NRA and Army matches, iron sights)...but there are VERY few public ranges beyond 500-yds.

I shoot regularly in the Utah desert. There are a multitude of places where I can safely shoot at ranges measured in miles. Just because you choose to live in an area that severely restricts your ability to shoot at extended ranges doesn't give you the right to restrict my shooting. Black Powder Cartridge Rifle shoots are regularly shot at ranges to 1,000 yards and beyond. Your arbitrary limitations would target rifles and cartridges in popular usage 150 years ago and now again. I believe Mike Venturino wrote about testing on a military range where several black powder rifles propelled bullets that were radar-tracked in excess of 3,00 yards downrange. And let's not forget Billy Dixon's famous shot at a measured range of 1,532 yards at the Battle of Adobe Walls in Texas. And just exactly what is the relevance of the number of public ranges open to long-range shooting? Is there some magical number of ranges that legitimatizes the sport?

Practical hunting ranges are up to about 500-yds for a skilled marksman, though few hunters will shoot more than 300-yds.

If "sporting use" is to be defined by hunting usage, then there is no need for other than single-shot rifles, is there? Your CETME and AR-15 are easily usable beyond the hunting ranges you define as practical, so, by your argument, you shouldn't have them.

.50's have enough power that one can easily cause unintended damage with them...incendiary and tracer ammo are available (and fun!), and can easily start fires.

.30's also can easily cause unintended damage if used unsafely and tracer ammo is readily available and can easily start fires. Better scrap that CETME

610-grain AP slugs don't stop easily, and ricochet a long way in rocky country.

So can any other caliber. I would wager that there are more complaints received by police about other-caliber ricochets than there are about .50 BMG ricochets.

The argument you put forth is much the same as that is so beloved by the AWB proponents (NOBODY needs a gun THAT powerful!) and you exhibit the same attitude that many firearms owners voice - well, as long as it doesn't affect MY particular sport, the anti's can do anything they want! But I'll bet if Congress was considering totally banning the "extreme weapons" (your words) that you enjoy shooting, you would be right here on this same forum condemming those dimwits that are trying to sell your heritage down the river. What is that Al Capp quote? "I have met the enemy and he is us!" I firmly believe that if our gun rights are lost that it will not have been the forces of the antis that brought us down but the apathy of gun owners who will sell other gun owners out just because they have no personal interest in the firearms being banned.
 
Well, I was going to add something but it's all been covered. :)

What the heck,

Article Last Updated: 2/13/2005 12:29 AM
.50-caliber rifles called a threat
By Christopher Smith
The Salt Lake Tribune
Salt Lake Tribune

WASHINGTON - From the headquarters of the Fifty Caliber Shooters Association in the central Utah town of Monroe, John Robertson publishes a magazine for the group's worldwide members extolling the virtues of the most powerful gun available to the public.
With a .50-caliber rifle, an experienced marksman can hit a rock the size of a Volkswagen Beetle from a distance of two miles. The gun can drop a bull moose dead in its tracks even after the bullet passes through a 5-inch-diameter tree branch. And a shot from the gun will pierce anything from a 3 1/2 -inch-thick manhole cover to a 600-pound safe or a stack of cinder blocks.
While enthusiasts revel in the gun's next-zip-code range and staggering impact velocity, those same features have some members of Congress declaring it a menace to national security.
"They are so accurate, so powerful and so deadly that they should only be used in a military setting," Rep. Jim Moran, D-Va., said this week on Capitol Hill, where he and other lawmakers introduced legislation to restrict sales of the gun made by several companies, including two from Utah.
Around a news conference table set with one of the bazooka-like rifles, Moran, the bill's Democratic co-sponsors, gun-control advocates and law enforcement officials discussed various potential terrorist scenarios using the gun, from shooting down airliners to detonating chemical weapons.
"If one of these weapons were used to puncture a rail car carrying a hazardous substance like chlorine gas, it would be catastrophic," said Moran, whose bill would require federal licensing of .50-caliber owners, similar to existing laws for machine gun owners.
The bill's chances of passage in a Republican dominated Congress are slim. All of Utah's federal lawmakers have at least a "B-plus" pro-gun voting record by the National Rifle Association and those House members contacted Friday said they had yet to see Moran's bill and had no comment on it.
Robertson, a longtime officer of the gun owners' association and editor of Very High Power magazine, doesn't refute that .50-caliber guns are accurate, powerful and lethal.
"We just don't see it as being the threat to the country as these people say it is and if it was, we'd back away from it," he said of the 3,500-member group. "It's never been used in the commission of a felony, nobody has been hurt in 20 years of [target-shooting] competition and our safety record is better than your local high school cheerleading team."
Robertson's group was founded in 1985 after a Tennessee gunmaker created the first civilian rifle to fire the .50 BMG shell used by the military. "BMG" stands for Browning Machine Gun, and the rifle's cartridge was invented in 1918 by renowned firearms designer John Browning of Ogden. Mounted on vehicles, ships and aircraft, Browning's legendary machine gun gave the U.S. military a distinct advantage in every conflict of the 20th century.
Because the single-shot offspring of Browning's automatic weapon is expensive, long and heavy, Robertson argues it's unlikely a criminal or terrorist would choose a .50-caliber gun.
"Terrorists are not going to go out and spend $6,000 to $10,000 for a rifle they can't move around with easily and that they will probably have to abandon," he said. "You have to go through the same waiting period as a handgun, you usually have to order them, you have to buy a scope, the cartridges cost $5 apiece and you need a lot of practice on the range to shoot over such long distances with accuracy."
But the U.S. Department of Homeland Security has raised concerns about easy access to .50-caliber rifles. A study by Congress' investigative arm found "the accessibility of these weapons in the United States is becoming known worldwide." Last month, CBS' newsmagazine "Sixty Minutes" dubbed the gun "the Rolls Royce of sniper rifles."
A law banning .50-caliber gun sales in California was signed by GOP Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger and went into effect last month. Fifty-caliber prohibition campaigns have been launched in other state legislatures, including Connecticut, Maryland, Washington and Colorado.
State bans and a potential federal crackdown worry David Larisch, vice president of L.A.R. Manufacturing in West Jordan, which makes the $2,195 Grizzly 50 Big Boar. The sleek rifle is billed as "the most accurate single shot .50-caliber on the market" with an effective range of 3,000 yards, or 30 football fields end to end.
But the threats of extinction are also a boon to business.
"Usually, when a scare like this comes, that's when sales go up," Larisch said. "When they came out with the California ban, we put a hold on all other orders for the months of October, November and December just to try to meet our California customers and they still were upset we weren't able to make more."
Producing 50 to 200 of the big guns monthly, L.A.R. is the largest of the two Utah companies in the .50-caliber trade. The other is Christensen Arms in Fayette, which markets a $5,500 "Carbon Ranger" .50-caliber that weighs 19 pounds. Larisch said .50-caliber weapons make up "just a small part" of L.A.R.'s $3 million annual revenue, but he sees the fate of the big gun as critical to the 40-employee firm.
"After the .50-caliber, what's next?" he said. "Show me one incident with a .50-caliber gun shooting down an airliner or an oil tanker. These anti-gun people doing this, they are just advertising ideas for terrorists who are going to find a way to get a .50-caliber if they want, regardless if it happens to be banned in certain states."
Tom Diaz of the gun-control group Violence Policy Center said such charges are hypocritical coming from an industry that has fostered a paramilitary image for the .50-caliber.
"I've got several books marketed by these enthusiast groups and their 'sniper schools' that lay out elaborate scenarios of attacking airfields and shooting down helicopters, showing you exactly where to shoot to knock it down," said Diaz. "Yes, nobody has ever been killed by these things. But does that mean we can't have a public policy until people become better shots and hit a fully loaded jetliner on a taxiway?"
 
TT,

You have fallen victim to rhetoric and forgotten the way it is supposed to be in this country. If I want something, can afford, and it doesn't violate the rights of others then I can have it. That is what makes America great. You have succumbed.victim. Let's simply change your wording a bit...

extreme weapons of no practical sporting value

To..

extreme cars of no practical commuting value. Why defend Lambo's and Ferarri's, only crazy speed freaks want them and that doesn't bode well for the 100,000 Civic owners out there. Plus, it makes us look bad to defend cars like that.

To...

extreme houses of no practical living value. Why defend a 4 bedroom house with 3-1/2 baths, only extravagent resource hogs want them and it isn't fair because all they need is a 1 bedroom house with 1 bathroom and bunk beds. Plus, it makes us look bad to defend big houses.

To...

extreme hamburgers of no practical nutritional value. Why defend a Big Mac and coke combo, it makes all of us that are vegetarians look bad. Do you know how hard you have to exercise to burn that off and who want to be caught defending such an evil food? It makes us look bad.

I can go on and on and on. 50s and MGs are a perfect example of a harmless object being demonized to push an elitist agenda. You show me one terrorist using a legally aquired 50 cal or MG and I'll reconsider. Until then, keep your rights trampling to yourself.
 
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