50 yards with defensive pistols.

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Trey Veston

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I shot my S&W M&P40 and Sig P365 at 43 yards last week to see if I could score hits on a head-sized target with five rounds, rapid fire.

I scored 2 hits each.

This week, I tried 50 yard shots, with a rest, 5-shots, slow fire, with cheap Remington ammo in a Glock G19 Gen 5 MOS with a Burris Fastfire III red dot, and a Sig P365 with factory sights.

Both pistols scored 4 hits on target...

 
This is a skill some fluff off as unnecessary but is something they need to reconsider.

Back in the 70s most police departments shot the PPC course for qualification which included 50 yard shooting using a B27 target. I shot consistently in the 290s with a 4" revolver and shooting a 300 was not unheard of at that time. We had to shoot this course with whatever we carried including 2" J frames.

Those that say you don't need to practice more than 7-10 yards are fooling themselves. Whilst getting into a fight with a handgun at 50 yds is unlikely having the skill to prevail is valuable.

I knew a guy in the 70s who took a successful 77 yd headshot with a 4" S&W M19.
 
I totally agree that too many people concentrate on small groups at 7, 10, and 15 yards when they need to know how their pistols shoots at 25 and 50 yards. I like to take clay birds with me and set some out at 25 and 50 yards. Most clay birds are about 4" in diameter. I place them on the berms and that lets me see my near misses.

Using something like clay birds or a B27 target at 50 yards is great practice. Here lately I have been setting clay bids out to 83 yards (farthest my local range goes) and shooting them with my S&W 22A, Kel-Tec CP33, and PMR30. I stick to 50 yards with my centerfire pistols and my other 22lr pistols.
 
It doesn't get really interesting until you step back to 50 yards. Then you see how well you actually shoot a handgun. Then go to 75 and one hundred.
 
The 70's PPC course for police recruit qualification included a 50 yard string of fire. That was wit 38 Special and 148gr hollow base wadcutters. The National Match pistol course also fires bullseye at 50 yards with the 1911 .45. Good experience, and skill to have. Deciding if it's appropriate to use in a defensive situation is up to the person in the scenario.
 
Well I’ve practiced the Hickok/Tutt shot with my 1851 Navy. Standing with the gun arm braced on an upright I can put most rounds somewhere on a 12x18 shoot and see target. It’s not a pretty group and the target is standing dead still.
 
Tom Givens has had 67 of his students confronted by armed criminals. Three students were murdered when they decided they didn't need to carry a gun that day. The other 64 were victorious. 64 of the 67 total encounters happened at a distance between 3-7 yards with the overwhelming majority between 3-5 yards. 3 out of 67 occurred at a distance greater than 7 yards with the longest being 21 yards. Over 90 percent of these defensive shootings occurred with 7 yards ( 1 1/2 car lengths). In addition not one of his students felt they needed a WML or flashlight. This is the kind of real world data from which to plan your training.
 
Tom Givens has had 67 of his students confronted by armed criminals. Three students were murdered when they decided they didn't need to carry a gun that day. The other 64 were victorious. 64 of the 67 total encounters happened at a distance between 3-7 yards with the overwhelming majority between 3-5 yards. 3 out of 67 occurred at a distance greater than 7 yards with the longest being 21 yards. Over 90 percent of these defensive shootings occurred with 7 yards ( 1 1/2 car lengths). In addition not one of his students felt they needed a WML or flashlight. This is the kind of real world data from which to plan your training.

Isn't it interesting (and yet unsurprising) how LE OIS incidents and private CCW self defense incidents seem to overlap in the respect of the typical distances involved?

I'm not a particular WML proponent, myself, either. However, when I was involved offering input for a previous series of issued duty weapons, I supported the idea of the ability of our people to have the option to choose to use them, if desired. I couldn't get enough of the right people to agree to conduct a specific WML training class, though, for various reasons.

My former agency is in the early part of the process of transitioning to new pistols that come factory-equipped with red sights. I just learned that all of the FTU instructors are receiving specific training in the use of the sights, and how to train the men and women to run the new guns with red dots. Nice step forward.
 
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For me barrel length makes a huge difference. I messed around at my long range a shot a man sized siloette 5 of 6 times at 100 yards with a 6" 686. Do I think that is a realistic enguagment???? Sometimes I test my skills. At a hundred yards or further I think you're taking on a lot of liability problems and your chances of proving that you are in eminent danger and not retreating would get very difficult
 
I think I mentioned it in another thread, but I just enjoyed a range session with another cop. He's done the "high speed/tactical" work at a couple of agencies (including LAPD), and has been involved in a couple of on-duty OIS incidents. When we arrived at the LE Only range for our scheduled session, he told me he preferred to focus his range drills on no more than 7yds, since that was where the significant majority of the shooting incidents occurred.

Sure, I've known and listened to other cops who were involved in OIS incidents when slightly longer distances have been involved (up to slightly over 100ft for one of them), but those seem to be fewer in number over time. I've read of other incidents where 100yds (+/-) have been involved, and the cops have only been able to use their issued handguns. Outliers.

I've seen my former agency go from max distances of 25yds for regular quals down to 10-11yds, and then back out to 15-20yds, although instructor training continued to involve distances out to 50yds (to stress and assess quality of basic skills, if nothing else). Sometimes a tactical weapons class involving handguns would be offered where shooters were given the opportunity to shoot standard steel silhouettes at 50yds, to give them confidence in their ability to do so.

Before we built a new (shorter) indoor facility I used to normally include drills going out to 35-50yds. Again, primarily to check and assess the quality of my basic skills. I even used my issued compact guns to run through our Patrol Rifle qual courses-of-fire, which have run from 10-100yds, and then from 10-75yds. (I passed, score-wise, but I had to reload more often than the guys & gals using 30rd rifle mags. ;) )

For the bulk of my own continued quals and training/drills? Whatever the current qual course involves (of course), but then a lot of emphasis on 1 & 2-handed shooting, with movement, from 1-7yds. The danger zone, so to speak.
 
Black Jack Pershing considered 50 yds the maximum distance for the 1911. Of course he would be referencing battle conditions.
It's been decades, but I used to attend a completion in Indiana that had a timed 50 yd phase with a silhouette target. Prone was the accepted method, with a standing start. I seem to remember a 5' hold above center mass. The target is then blocked by the pistol. With practice you can drop the lead right in.
 
I've shot a lot of bullseye over the decades 25 & 50 Yds. As this is written those days and distances are in the past. I have my own handgun range on the property which is rather simplistic. All of my shooting is now 10,7&3 yards which in my opinion is more realistic. My EDC is a S&W Shield 9X19mm and the back up is a S&W M640 38Spl which is seldom carried. This past year we have not shot as much as we usually would have but that's the situation of life we are in with ammunition supply and demand. We practice this like a religion avoidance of stupid people, places and things which as a more profound effect than our ability with a weapon.
 
That would depend on the totality of the circumstances. Were they already shooting at you with a rifle? Were you pinned down with or without cover and had to cover a distance to get away? I could go on with scenarios.

You sure could no doubt about that. And in a nation of 350+ million with our gun availability I’m sure it’s happened, but for the average private citizen it’s a remote possibility.
 
So two hits and three potential wrongful death lawsuits. That's another angle to consider.

A citizen shooting some one 150 feet away would, in my mind, bring up some legal issues.

Not sure where you are getting that I advocate self-defense shooting at 50 yards. The whole thing started from hearing about the Tucson officer that shot a BG in the head at 43 yards. I was curious as to how accurate my defensive pistols were at greater distances. Now I'm getting lectured on lawsuits and legal issues?

I'm confused how someone extrapolates having fun at the range shooting long distances to someone either advocating or expecting defensive shooting scenarios at that range.
 
You sure could no doubt about that. And in a nation of 350+ million with our gun availability I’m sure it’s happened, but for the average private citizen it’s a remote possibility.

I agree. A very remote possibility.

I think it's better to have a skill you'll "probably" never need vs not having a skill and you run into that "remote possibility".
 
Yes, training out to 50 yards is not a bad idea (anything that stretches your skills is worth doing...). Now for the part that most haven't considered... Is shooting at someone 50 yards away justifiable as a defensive action? If I'm under threat - but from a distance, is my best course of action returning fire - or going to cover and preparing to defend if the assailant closes to pursue his (or her) aggression?

Certainly if faced by someone armed with a rifle you're in serious trouble - is that same situation different if an opponent is only armed with a pistol and at a distance? I'm not proposing any hard and fast rule or principle - but every armed citizen needs to think through whether they're better off going to cover with an assailant at a distance - or standing their ground and returning fire...

For me... I'll be resorting to gunplay - when there's no other choice, period... Others may disagree.. Yes, it's a good thing to be able to shoot at a distance - but for a defensive situation - is it wise?
 
Not sure where you are getting that I advocate self-defense shooting at 50 yards. The whole thing started from hearing about the Tucson officer that shot a BG in the head at 43 yards. I was curious as to how accurate my defensive pistols were at greater distances. Now I'm getting lectured on lawsuits and legal issues?

I'm confused how someone extrapolates having fun at the range shooting long distances to someone either advocating or expecting defensive shooting scenarios at that range.

I have to agree with you on this. No need for lectures about different scenarios or lawsuits when we are talking about honing our skills to make longer distant shots.

Yes it is a proven fat that most engagements, no matter if by police or private citizens, are at very close ranges. That is not to say that you should not or don't need to practice at longer distances. The better you are at 25 or even 50 yards, the better you will be at 10 yards.
 
Yes, training out to 50 yards is not a bad idea (anything that stretches your skills is worth doing...). Now for the part that most haven't considered... Is shooting at someone 50 yards away justifiable as a defensive action? If I'm under threat - but from a distance, is my best course of action returning fire - or going to cover and preparing to defend if the assailant closes to pursue his (or her) aggression?

Certainly if faced by someone armed with a rifle you're in serious trouble - is that same situation different if an opponent is only armed with a pistol and at a distance? I'm not proposing any hard and fast rule or principle - but every armed citizen needs to think through whether they're better off going to cover with an assailant at a distance - or standing their ground and returning fire...

For me... I'll be resorting to gunplay - when there's no other choice, period... Others may disagree.. Yes, it's a good thing to be able to shoot at a distance - but for a defensive situation - is it wise?
We all have the obligation to retreat to the maximum point possible. If your trapped hopefully your practice and or training works. I dont shoot to train I shoot for fun.
 
We all have the obligation to retreat to the maximum point possible. If your trapped hopefully your practice and or training works. I dont shoot to train I shoot for fun.

And there is nothing wrong with that either.

Now for some of us, we train as we fight. And for military veterans, that was drilled into us right away during boot camp/basic training. I always train for the worst case scenario and hope that I never have to use a firearm to take another life ever again. I will also try to retreat and/or avoid bad situations as much as possible. But I do want to know that I can make a shot if needed, so I practice.
 
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