55 year old 4198. Still good?

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aggiejet

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Greetings,

Just joined the forum. I have experinece reloading shotgun shells with a MEC Jr. that my grandpa gave me for Christmas when I was 13. This same grandpa gave me his reloading stuff for his Savage .222 to include two 8 pound mini kegs of powder labeled 4198 with a penciled date of 6-26-56. My grandpa passed away in '04 but he kept this powder in his garage that was a stable enviroment. However, when he gave it to me, I stored it in my garage (here in OK) that isn't temperature controled for the last 15 years. Now I have a 12 year old son, and I want to pass down the art of reloading to him.

I read most of the advice on how to check to see if your powder is good. Seems like the smell test is what everyone subscribes to.(that applies to a lot of things in life) I have smelled the powder, and I don"t know that I can say it smells like solvent or acid, as I dont know what acid smells like. It doesn't have a strong odor either way.I have smelled it several times, long inhalations even, and it isn't painfull. Also, I burned some yesterday on the garage floor. Can you tell anything from doing that? So based on that, do you think my powder is still good. I hope so, because I can't stand the thought of dumping out 16#'s of powder.

Secondly, what brand of powder do you think this is? My dad who also is deceased, thinks my grandpa bought this as military surplus, but I can't swear to that. I obviously need to identify this to find a reciepe for reloading.

As a not so funny side story, I asked my grandpa once what his receipe was for his .222 bullets. He said he loaded them up till it splattered the bullet, then backed off a grain! I said, "you can't do that!" He replied, "Sure you can. It's a bolt action rifle, it can take it." :banghead:

Finally, I have a lot of primers. I assume from that same vintage. Reckon, they are still good?

In summation: Are my powder and primers good and what kind of 4198 do you think I have.

thanks,
Mark
 
I believe there were two types of 4198....IMR and Hodgdons. Altho they were different, I believe they had similar burning characteristics and folks used similar recipes with them. That is all I know. I would research farther before using them to make sure the old powders are the same as the new before using new load data. If the cans were unopened and sealed I would not be afraid to use it. If they have been opened for 55 years, I'd use them as fertilizer.

The primers I think would be fine.
 
and what kind of 4198 do you think I have.
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First, if the container does not say who made the powder, it is lawn fertilizer, as you have no way of knowing if it is truly 4198, or something else.

as I dont know what acid smells like.
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Acid smells like acid.
Or vinegar in your salad dressing, or a car battery when you over-charge it, or, well you get the idea.
At any rate, it doesn't smell reasonably pleasant, like the Ether, Acetone, & other aromatic solvents used to manufacture powder.

If the powder can be positively identified as either IMR-4198, or Hodgdon H-4198, and it doesn't smell bad, and there isn't red dust in it, it should be perfectly fine.

Primers will remain good indefinitely, and yours are probably still fine.

rc
 
Dump a cap full on the ground and touch a lit match to it. If it burns quickly, it is good, if it fizzels or burns slowly, it is fertilizer. I have seen both IMR and Hodgdon's listed as surplus.
 
I just burned one level tablespoon on the garage floor. It took 8 seconds to burn out. That seems real slow to me. in addition, I noticed the top of the mini keg says Hercules, but I guess he was just using the cans as I don't believe Hercules made 4198. On a lighter side, I think these are 3 pound cans, not eight. :)
 
Smokeless powder burns slowly unconfined. The look and smell is what will tell you if it is good or not.

Chances are it is labeled right by Grand Dad cause in general we are an anal lot and prone to good housekeeping, so to speak, but ya never know.

Welcome to the forum
 
Agreed on the anal part, but I could give him a run for his money. The apple doesn"t fall far from the tree.:)

That said, all he labeled on the side of the can in magic marker is "4198 Rifle Powder" and "6-18-56" The can is pink and "Hercules Propellant Explosives-Class B" is embossed in raised lettering on the top of the can.

Additionally, if the gunpowder was breaking down into acid, I think there would be evidence of rust on this metal can and I see none. So I am now more concerned with identifying the powder moreso than worrying if it is good or not.

Thanks,
Mark
 
++++the above posts. If you can't positively, without a shadow of a doubt identify it then you should dump it around your roses. You don't want to teach your young boy bad reloading practices and the wife will love how brilliant the roses look. Win win!! :)
Its always better to be safe than to be blind or an amputee. (I know, graphic and morbid. But true none the less)
Just my long winded 2 cents.
Woody

Keep your head low and your powder dry.
 
if the gunpowder was breaking down into acid, I think there would be evidence of rust on this metal can
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Exactly right. If there is no brown dust, no corrosion on the metal, and no acid smell, it's at least good enough to try. It boils down to if you trust grand dad and his reloading habits.
 
If you do attempt to use it start with the recipes for the slower of the 4198 offerings to be sure and if there happens to be a manual of that vintage he used I would use the data within and be sure to start 10% low. He might have even underlined the recipes he used in that book and you will know what powder it most likely is.
 
I just poured out an 8 lb can of IMR4198. According to the date on can, I bought it 17 years ago. It had been stored properly and never opened until recently. I would think the metal can would have kept it from absorbing moisture.

It smelled just fine - alcohol, ether etc. But when I poured some into the powder measure a puff of red dust showed up. The inside of the can was rusty. I >think< the powder was OK, but it became fertilizer. It pained me to dump it, but the flowers like me, and I still have my fingers and eyes.
 
Unfortunately I have no reloading manuals from my grandpa from which to reference. I had ask him about manuals right after he gave me all that reloading and that is what prompted his "load em till they splatter comment." I am not that stupid to do that.

Several posters have made references to keeping my eyes and limbs. Is that the consequence of using powder that has gone bad? Or does stuff start blowing up in your face when you use too many grains of one brand of powder when you actually have another.

The only manual I have is 5th Edition Lyman. What do you guys prefer? As far as I can tell, all of the loads for the .222 Rem, reference IMR 4198. So if I had Hodgons instead of IMR, how dangerous is that?

If you sent a sample to the repsective company's, could they identify it?

It is gonna break my heart to pour out over 16#'s of powder, but that may be all I can do. But I want to exhaust all avenues of identification before I do.

Thanks,
Mark
 
aggiejet said:
Several posters have made references to keeping my eyes and limbs. Is that the consequence of using powder that has gone bad? Or does stuff start blowing up in your face when you use too many grains of one brand of powder when you actually have another.
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Yes, using a recipe for the wrong powder is a sure way to get into trouble. If the powder has gone bad, the problem is poor ignition and a stuck bullet. Not a major if you realize it when it happens, but if you don't you have a barrel obstruction.


aggiejet said:
It is gonna break my heart to pour out over 16#'s of powder, but that may be all I can do. But I want to exhaust all avenues of identification before I do.

Thanks,
Mark
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I thought you said it was two 3# cans. The value of 6 pounds of old powder is not worth any of my guns or the safety of me and/or my son. Again, if I was not sure, I'd dump it....especially since it is not in it's original container. Since granpa wasn't too picky about his loads, ''load em till they splatter'', I'd be a little wary of his labeling and storage procedures also.
 
I would hang on to the powder. Unless I misread, it souds like you're just getting started with rifle reloading, so I wouldn't start off with this powder. After you get the hang of reading preasure signs, you may decide to work up a load with the surplus stuff.
A bilistics lab could tell you all about the powder, but that would be cost prohibitive.

Good Luck.
 
I poured out approx. 7# of two different powders, 35 years old.
There was enough doubt about its condition to warrant throwing it out.
It sure does hurt to pour out that much money.
 
I once met a guy who was missing all four of his fingers on his right hand and a some of his thumb. He did NOT KNOW that gun powder must be SPREAD OUT and UNCONFINED if you intend to burn it. (I noticed he had no eye brow over his right eye. Just some red scar tissue.)

He has a life time story to tell anyone who asks. Folks at the local pool hall nick-named him "puppy paw". No, he does not shake hands very much.
 
Toss the powder no need to burn it just put it on the the rose bushes, they will like it.
Keep the cans (Collectors items if you don't want them send them to me)
Live a long safe life.

I am going to help my lawn out with about 10 lbs of powder that got too hot during storage later this summer.

Joe
 
I'd not dump 16# of powder around a roze bush for the following reasons.

1) It may not help the plant. (Powder isn't water soluble so how much is really getting into the soil?)

2) You have a 12 year old son who undoutably has friends. (How long do you think it will take them to find a match?)

3) I could be wrong bout the solubility business above. (You'd burn the plants from over-fertilizing.)

If I had to dispose of 16# of suspect powder I'd probably pour it along the curb and burn it in a line two or three pounds at a time.

Personally, I'd trust my grandpa and start with a minimum load in a bolt gun and shoot it over a chronograph.
 
Thanks for all the input. In defense of my grandpa, he was very meticulous and organized in everything I ever saw him do. He was obviously misguided in his assumption that since he was shooting bolt action rifles, he could "load "em till they splatter." That said, I have no doubt the the powder is 4198, and I know for a fact that this was what he was using to reload the ammo for this 222. I just don't know who manufactured it.

Ancedotely, all of the recipes in my Lyman 47th Reloading Handbook (printed in 1992) that reference the numbers 4198 are all listed as IMR 4198. To me, this a strong clue that my powder is IMR 4198.

One last question, could you visually identify or discern which 4198 powder it is? Does H4198 look different than IMR 4198? I understand that Hodgdon bought IMR in 2003. Is that true?

thanks
 
You cannot definitively distinguish one 4198 from another by appearance.

4198 was popular with small calibers like .222. Not unusual that he was loading .222 with it.
 
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