6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, .265 1*, etc.

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Zak, thanks again for your help and patience with a relative newbie.

Any thoughts on Robinson's XCR, specifically supposed increased reliability over the AR platform? Alex seems to be hedging on the 6.8 upper availability but that would interest me if the XCR proves its worth and the 6.8 is offered.

Ballistically, and for my humble purposes, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference in the 6.5 vs. the 6.8 but IF all things were equal, I'd have to go with the 6.5 only because it's been around and seems to have some advantages at certain ranges.

Thanks again,
jAKk-47
 
jAK-47,

I think this is the wrong thread to discuss AR15 reliability vs. other rifle designs. I believe the reliability problems with direct-gas impingement are vastly over-rated. With regard to the XCR, I am curious to see how complex it is (ie, stuff to go wrong) and how parts availability ends up. When my RobArm M96 broke in just a few thousand rounds, it took me months to get parts from RobArm. On the other hand, if an AR15 fire control group or bolt takes a dump in the middle of a carbine class, it's easy to drop in a spare that anybody would have.

As for 6.5 vs 6.8. Each person should get the best data he can about each, look at his needs, and decide for himself which solves his problems better.

-z
 
Zak,

Yeah, I got so excited about the 6.8 in an AR-15 platform that I got off on a tangent about "supposed" reliability problems. My point was that IF you happen to be one of those people who thinks there is a reliability problem with the AR design, maybe the XCR would be a good choice for the 6.8, or the .223 for that matter.

I never did use my M96 very much because I'm not a .223 fan but the VEPRs Alex sells are really awesome guns.

By coincidence I JUST got an email from Alex that I'll share, for what it's worth.
1) He has had good results with initial testing of the 6.8 and is just waiting for the bulk of the test ammo to really run it through the paces. They have a "backorder' of over 20,000 rounds with Remington. Robarms wants to prove that their design will be able to handle a lot of punishment and their bolt will outlast the AR bolt. He said that he just heard that American Ammunition is going to produce the 6.8 round - let's hope they and others do so.
2) You can order the XCR in 6.8; you don't have to buy a .223 and then order a 6.8 conversion.
3) They have a vendor working on reliable magazines for a 7.62X39 conversion. If they can get reliable mags, they'll offer it. Since they are modifying mags I assume that means all our AK mags won't work - too bad, but even if true, the XCR would be a nice platform for AK, AR and the 6.8 round. I was thinking of getting the Krebs KTR 03S but if Alex offers an AK conversion at 1/2 or 1/3 the price...

Take care,
jAK-47
 
The bulk of this topic is from over a year ago. I wonder if the progress the 6.8 and 6.5 have made in that time be summerized by their proponents?
Click to expand...

Precious little.

The Grendel is still without magazines that hold more than 16 rounds and development is ongoing in these to improve reliability. Brass and ammunition is available (and should be first rate), however and there are “patches” for the magazines. Ironically the best fix seems to be PRI’s 6.8 SPC mags. AA is allowing a few other outfits to sell Grendel chambered rifles, but still holds their reamer specs close to the vest for some reason. There are multiple Grendel reamer designs. Wolf has agreed to produce ammunition.

The 6.8 SPC has reliable high capacity magazines available now, but factory ammunition/brass is very spotty in availability. It would appear for whatever reason Remington is stinging out 6.8 owners. They are busy making ammo for “double super secret military customers” or “the cartridge is so badly designed they can’t make ammo that works at all.” Personally I think both are total BS, but I don’t know anything that can account for Remington not selling brass. It is possible that there may be a design change in the 6.8 brass, such as small rifle primers. Hornady has announced intentions to produce 6.8 brass, but there is no timetable. America also has a contract with Barrett to produce 6+ million rounds of 6.8 and has since last fall. American is the worst ammo around, but it is possible that the ammo could actually be made by IMI.


David
 
Well if you ask the 6.5 Grendel Trolls about the progress that a different story then one I would tell. They want to sit back and snipe the BG at 700 yards with a 24 inch barrel. However not everyone can be snipers some unlucky SOB's has to go in harms way. A 24 inch barrel is not the ideal weapon for house to house searches so logic tells you to use a shorter barrel. So lets use a shorter say 14.5 inches barrel on a 6.5 Grendel if they had one, but you loses that all important velocity that the 6.5 Grendel needs, because is only moving a 2600fps from a 24 inch barrel.
http://www.alexanderarms.com/website/id24.html Guess what you have now a slow bullet with horrible terminal ballistics due to it's long neck which is great for paper punching, but hey it has a great BC. Now the ballistics start to look like its parent round the 7.62 x 39mm. Did I mention that the Magazines suck, they don't feed and in that all important fire fight there is only 17 rounds. The 6.5 Grendel is not a CQB round, its a long range paper punching target, and which I wish the Trolls will stop thinking that is a CQB or intermediate round and then compare it to the 6.8 spc which was designed as a CQB or intermediate to 500 meters with a 20 to 12 inch barrels.I would compare the 6.5 Grendel AR to the likes of the Stoner or DPMS .308 rifles not to the .223/5.56 AR's but, I still can not find where the 6.5 is superior to the 308. If I was the unlucky SOB going into harms way give me a 6.8 spc with the 25 round mags anyday.
 
I still can not find where the 6.5 is superior to the 308.
Click to expand...
6.5 Grendel is marginally better than 308 for wind, and comparable for drop:
Code: 
_Bullet_           _BC_ _MV_         0     200     400     600     800 | YARDS
308 175SMK        0.51* 2650 >    0.00    2.78   11.93   28.88   55.51 | wind (inches)
6.5 108gr         0.481 2700 >    0.00    2.80   12.01   29.14   55.98 | wind (inches)
6.5 123gr         0.542 2600 >    0.00    2.60   11.09   26.69   50.80 | wind (inches)
6.5 144gr         0.587 2450 >    0.00    2.61   11.09   26.54   50.21 | wind (inches)

308 175SMK        0.51* 2650 >   -2.60   -0.00  -23.55  -81.98 -187.78 | drop (inches)
6.5 108gr         0.481 2700 >   -2.60   -0.00  -22.76  -79.60 -182.98 | drop (inches)
6.5 123gr         0.542 2600 >   -2.60   -0.00  -23.96  -82.49 -186.64 | drop (inches)
6.5 144gr         0.587 2450 >   -2.60   -0.00  -26.90  -91.62 -205.32 | drop (inches)
However, if you are already stepping up to a 308-length action (ie, SR25/AR10 or bolt gun), you could shoot the same 6.5mm bullets in 260REM with a lot more velocity than Grendel can produce.

-z
 
LOTS of If's but...

IF they settle on the 6.8 and commit to BIG production to bring costs down and IF they make reliable 25 round mags and IF someone comes out with a really good AR upper or IF the XCR meets expectations and IF handloading components are readily available and IF different weight bullets are made, and IF the 6.8 can really be compared to the .308 - I JUST MIGHT BE IN LOVE :eek:

Almost everything I like about the .223, 7.62X39 and 7.62 NATO in ONE gun???? Then all I'd have to do is buy a Krebs KTR 03S to be in heaven! Hey, I just gotta have this Krebs gun...

jAK-47
 
25 rounds 6.8SPC mags from PRI are reliable. I haven't had any failures yet. Zero. Have ran them full-auto.

There are already really good AR15 uppers. You need look no further than PRI, MSTN, or Barrett, depending on your needs. I see no reason why the Leitner-Wise piston conversion wouldn't work with 6.8SPC.

The only thing missing for handloading components right now is brass availability. I'm still working on the original 2000 pcs I bought from Midway in 2004 (even having sold off a bunch at merely my cost), but I got that mainly by watching and getting lucky. I expect AA/Barrett and Hornady to have ammo available this year.

GG-

There is some public gel data in the leaked NDIA interim report from 2004 -- there should be a like to it from TacticalForums or maybe here. I know there is a lot more, but it is not public yet. The best terminal performer so far in 6.8 is the 110gr VMAX, followed by the 115gr Hornady OTM. I hope data on those and others can be published this year, but it's not my deal.

-z
 
I’ve exhumed this thread because it represents some of the best debate I’ve seen on the subject and I’d like to see how the some of the original participants are viewing things in light of the last six months of developments (and lack thereof) and the recent SHOT show announcements.

The 6.5 Grendel had Wolf ammunition and long-awaited high capacity magazines at SHOT as well as carbine uppers from Alexander Arms and upper receivers from Sabre Defense. As far as I can tell, none of these items is currently available.

The 6.8 SPC has no less than 4 manufacturers producing brass and at least that many offering loaded ammunition. None load the cartridge to match Remington’s 2800fps claim, not even Remington. The 2550-2650fps velocities that most people are reporting are more in line with the stated pressures and cartridge specifications.
Upper receivers, magazines, ammunition, brass and dies are now currently available through online retailers and are becoming fairly available in retail establishments.

David
 
I think if you had a 24" barrel, you could hit the 2800fps number from 6.8SPC, but that is irrelevant because nobody's going to use a barrel that long.

If you scan the threads here and on AR15.com, a lot of guys took deer last fall with the 6.8SPC, successfully, from 30 yards on out to 200 or 300 yards.

To me, it looks like both cartridges have growing support in both weapons and ammunition.

6.5 Grendel now has ammo from both AA and Wolf. 6.8SPC has it from SSA, Remington, PCA, Hornady, HSM, and Load-X. 6.5 Grendel uppers are/will be available from multiple sources, as 6.8's have been. Factory bolt rifles are available for 6.8. Suppressors are available for both.

This is a win for the consumer and end-user.

Most think I am a 6.8SPC zealot, which is untrue. I am interested in getting and promulgating the best information ("what we know with certainty"), and I expect I will try out a 6.5 Grendel in various practical applications in 2006 (and obviously compare it to the 6.8!).

best regards
Zak
 
Ruck, I'm not clear about what you're saying. Are you saying that the 6.5 Grendel happens to work OK with "regular" 5.56 mags, or that the 6.5 Grendel was intended to work with regular AR mags?

Just to make sure nobody gets the wrong idea: the 6.5 Grendel is intended to run ONLY on 6.5 Grendel-specific magazines because the case body is fat, like 7.62x39 Russian. C-Products makes them for Alexander Arms.

For more information, please see my website: 6.5 Grendel.

John
 
The AR has the ergos just about perfect, and its modularity allows great flexibility. I'd really hate to lose those advantages. Its operation could be made more reliable. Piston-operated guns are known for being harder to make accurate, however.
Click to expand...

If I remember right, the SIG 550 is more accurate than the AR-15, and it's piston operated.
 
Ah yes, I remember 2004. But fond memories aside this one has been revived 3 times now, lets allow the poor thing rest in peace this time. ;)
 
Concerning only1* comments about achieved velocity at standard pressures: Remington no longer claims 2800 fps for the 6.8 SPC. Their cartridges are now spec at 2625 fps from a 24" barrel per the Remington web site.

The Grendel has the advantage of greater energy delivered at all ranges with even greater energy than the .308 at extreme range.

The Grendel has also proven itself to be extremely accurate with all the posts of new owners achieving sub-MOA accuracy at all ranges. It makes a good hunting rifle for medium game as well as a great target shooter out to long range.

The 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC work well out of each other's magazines as well.
 
The fact that the 6.5mm Grendel came out in 2002, and the 6.8 is a rather new round also, added to the fact that a lot of thought went into these rounds specificly taking into mind a replacement of the 5.56mm as the main NATO round, and trying to find that middle ground between the 5.56mm and the 308cal means that anybody seriously thinking that the 5.56mm still is superior to either of these should think again.

It is obvious that only the large ammount of money and time that would go into replacing the current 5.56mm is the only reason why NATO armies arent already going for a 'six mm'.

And if indeed people want to keep their existing M-16s, that's why the 6.8mm was designed in the first place! One can re-bore a 5.56mm AR-15 into a 6.8, or just change the barrel, and even the magazine can be changed from 5.56mm to 6.8mm with minimal work.

So, there is no really huge work to change into 6.8mm...

I gather that the 6.5Grendel is slightly superior of the two '6mm' contenders, but it's clear that these two represent the most logical step for upgrading the NATO standard...

A guy shot a record 30mm group from 600 meters with 6.5mm grendels... Also, it has design roots in penetrating medium body armour and still inflicting damage at a reasonable distance in it's research...

I'm shure that the US special forces had similar tests when they were designing the 6.8mm too...

I myself would go for the Grendel, but the 6.8mm would make NATO troops at the hot end of the debate happier too I'm shure!

ps,

This guys site is quite convincing!

" Ruck, I'm not clear about what you're saying. Are you saying that the 6.5 Grendel happens to work OK with "regular" 5.56 mags, or that the 6.5 Grendel was intended to work with regular AR mags?

Just to make sure nobody gets the wrong idea: the 6.5 Grendel is intended to run ONLY on 6.5 Grendel-specific magazines because the case body is fat, like 7.62x39 Russian. C-Products makes them for Alexander Arms.

For more information, please see my website: 6.5 Grendel.

John
__________________
6.5 Grendel: The State-of-the-Art Combat Cartridge ".

Take a look!

This wikipedia site is also very informative, it has a link to their 6.8mm page too... I'll put some graphs I downloaded from the wikipedia site (and a pic of a Grendel sniper rifle). Enjoy!:)

HERE IS A CHART FROM WIKIPEDIA
attachment.php

I did not make this chart myself, and find it somewhat strange that it claims that the 5.56mmNATO has more punch than the 7.62x39mm (AK-47) at 300 meters! I mean everybody knows that at distance an AK-47 can punch through more concrete or a thicker tree than the 5.56mm...

But, maybe I dont understand the graph, so...?

Still, pretty interesting if it is objective...
 

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Maybe the Grendel can be improved, maybe not. At the moment, it lacks flexibility in terminal effects and with military FMJ and OTM loads it falls short of the maximized terminal effects window of 4". Then of course there are the feeding problems associated with the short magnum styled casing and lack of a reliable belt fed option. You can read more here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=396783&page=2
 
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