600/1K yard rifle questions

[Detritus]

Note: I may have asked some of these questions back when i first thought about doing this (back in '03) but after 6 years a single new thread is probably better than resurrection of several ancient ones.


Ok, my being a full time student this past year and a couple other things added up to my wife and I getting a larger than normal tax return, and I got my fingers crossed that after all the "have to take care of" stuff is done that we will have enough left to buy a Savage 10FP in .308 to use as the basis for an "as time, money allow" build of a usable 1,000yrd rifle, that on any range trip other than 1K match day, be used for shooting at distances from 100-600. Having only fired maybe 5 rounds total at 1Kyrds i naturally have questions.

Ok, here are both my questions and bits of my previous decisions w/ the logic that cause me to make some of those decisions. i'm certainly up to have any mistakes i've made in my process brought to light.

First i assume that i should stick with variants of the 10FP that have 24" or 26" barrels? I've been told that it doesn't really matter out to around 600yards but out past that the loss of velocity can cause problems.

getting it in .308 becasue the choice (factory offering wise) was between .308 and .223 and I KNOW that the factory barrels on the 10FP and 12FV in .223 use a twist rate that is insufficent to stabilize the heavy bullets needed to take a .223 to 1K. ideally i'd get it in .260, and that IS a very likely step in the next few years.

i'm pretty sure that to be able to shoot out to 1K and still have the ability to use the gun for shorter distances i'll need a 20MOA scope base. other than Farrel who all makes quality 20moa bases for Savage rifles?
i found one listed on Midway from EGW, is this one any good?

Anyone on here ever had, used, etc one of the "Super Sniper" scopes from SWFA? I know they are not gonna be the best optics out there but i'm just wanting to get something reasonably priced that i can use until I get my skills and the rest of the package, to a point where i feel justified in paying for higher end glass.

what bullet weight should i be looking to use at 600 and 1k?

any suggested powders?

any other advice? i've been shooting for 20 years, but have only fired at 600yards or more 4 or 5 times in my life and as mentioned that includes less than 5 rounds at 1K, so i consider myself a total noob with regard to this subject.

thank you for your time and any advice you can give me. if you need any more info to better help let me know.

 

[Zak Smith]

It sounds like you know what type of competition you're going to shoot? It wasn't clear to me, but be aware that different matches have different rules. There is F-Class, F-T/R, Any/Any, the "outlaw"/non-standard long-range matches, etc. Each of these may have slightly different equipment rules.

However, if you mainly want a 308 that is reasonably competent for a 308 at 600-1000 yards, you're on the right track. I would personally counsel towards a better scope than what you're looking at, but it may be able to get the job done. In that price range, about the best you can hope for is that it holds zero and the knob adjustments are repeatable.

For bullets, I'd look at the 155 Lapua Scenar (see the thread on the Tikka T3 from today) and then back-up to the 175 SMK if the Scenar doesn't work in your rifle. For powder, you cannot go wrong with Varget for either of these bullets in .308.

FWIW, my 308 is a 24", 1:12 twist, using Lapua 155's, Varget, Lapua cases, and 210M primers. I've shot thousands of these at targets from 300 - 1350 yards.

 

[Detritus]

It sounds like you know what type of competition you're going to shoot? It wasn't clear to me, but be aware that different matches have different rules. There is F-Class, F-T/R, Any/Any, the "outlaw"/non-standard long-range matches, etc. Each of these may have slightly different equipment rules.

reality is that i want it, so i can shoot the 600yrd prone matches put on by my local club (Note to self: must remember to show up, and talk with the guys at first one of year, Sat.), and the 300 and 1K prone matches put on by a club about 30mins away. I'm not entirely sure what divisions, etc they have going at these matches (other than the Service Rifle guys shooting it for the prone practice). Last time i was able to actually shoot a match, F-class wasn't entirely accepted, and the match directors i ran into at both clubs seemed to use it to mean "the gun's got a scope on it".


I'm pretty sure that a basically out of the box 10FP in .308 fits within F-T/R, and that the stocks i've been thinking about would keep it within that class. Now if i decide to change to .260 or another short action 6.5 when i get it rebarreled, that boots me into straight up F-class as i understand it. (again if i am mistaken i welcome correction)

I pretty well know the scope is at best a stopgap to let me shoot while i save up for Leupold or better, but i've heard some decent reveiws over the years.

I'll keep the powder adn bullet suggestions in mind. thank you.

 

[Detritus]

Well all the savage specific parts of my original post just became moot. Found a Rem 700 SPS Varmint for an "out the door" price that was less than what the (equivilent) Savages i've been looking at were going for before shipping and transfer, or (in the case of local shops) taxes. and put it on lay-away for now.

so now i have to go back and find the remington specific versions of the various after market bits i was thinking about for the savage... no big deal really.

anyone have advice for a new owner of a SPS Varmint??

 

[n00b]

For those guys thinking about barrel length...

http://www.sniperschool.com/sniper-rifle-barrel-length/

These guys know their poop. They have come to the understanding that an 18" barrel is better than a 24".

 

[~z]

The EGW 20 MOA base is a very good product for 1/2 the price of anyone elses. I own 2 and my only complaint is they are a bit taller than the NF base. Good luck on your build. If you need a smith, PM me I know a VERY GOOD one not too far from your area.
~z
~z

 

[Jim Watson]

Got a Remington, eh?
Pro: More stuff available. Easier to find scope bases, etc.
Con: Requires gunsmith tools or gunsmith to change barrel.

By the time you wear out the factory barrel, you will have experience, advice, and ideas for improvements. Go shooting.

 

[Detritus]

Got a Remington, eh?
Pro: More stuff available. Easier to find scope bases, etc.
Con: Requires gunsmith tools or gunsmith to change barrel.

well, in light of the other thing(s) i'm trying to get lined up in my life right now. Hopefully by the time i need or more likely, want to change the barrel, or other "you need a gunsmith for that" parts on the rifle. I'LL be a gunsmith or at least doing an apprenticeship with one.

 

[green3845]

600-1000

If my feeble mind serves me correctly, I believe we have conversed on this topic before.

You are lucky to live in Lake Jackson, as Greenwood Gun Club is right there, with a 600 yard range.

They are having a 60 shot 600 yard prone match tomorrow, Saturday, Feb. 26, 2009. You should go there tomorrow and hang around and look at gear and ask questions.

20 miles north up 288 from you is Bayou Rifles. Their range is 200 to 1000. They shoot at least 2, usually 3 matches a month that you can shoot prone matches in, that include F class and TR class rifles. Both of these clubs would welcome you with open arms to shoot, no matter if your rifle doesn't exactly fit some class. Go shoot with them!

On an entirely different note, how is an 18" barreled .308 "the best" for shooting at 600-1000 yards?

I guess almost 40 years worth of competitive shooters shooting the .308 out to 1000 should immediately cut their barrels to 18" based on this article......

Amazing!

 

[Detritus]

To green3845.

I'm a greenwood member, the revival of the 600yrd prone matches this year is one of the major factors behind me wanting this rifle/project. and the presence of Bayou adn their 1k yard range is the reason i'm getting a .308 and not a .223.

I plan on showing up at the greenwood match tommorrow morning. won't be able to SHOOT the match but as you say it gives me a chance to talk to folks about gear etc, as well as find out from those who've had rifles built for these matches, which local smiths they use.
This last bit (re: gunsmiths) is doubly important to me right now since i am trying to find a sponsor for an apprenticeship.

On an entirely different note, how is an 18" barreled .308 "the best" for shooting at 600-1000 yards?

Trying to keep away from the argument that can come from this one, some facts.

Stiffer barrels group better. and for a given diameter shorter = more relative stiffness.

barrel length on a scoped rifle (on iron-sighted guns longer barrels increase sight radius which is a whole other topic), simply provides a greater space/time in which the powder can accellerate the bullet. contrary to some beleifs MV does NOT equal accuracy.

SO, the argument for the 18" barrel is that it is stiffer than a longer barrel of similar Diameter, and that it still gives enough MV to reach 1,000yrds requiring only a small amount of additional "come-up" over say a 26" barreled gun.

beyound that it b/c an in-depth discussion best left for say a seperate thread.

My personal take is, that while the physics etc say an 18" tube will work at 1K, you won't see ME going to the 1000yrd line with one that short, if i want stiffer i'll go to a larger diameter barrel. frankly i'll likely never shoot well enough to tell a difference out that far.

 

[Zak Smith]

Stiffer barrels group better. and for a given diameter shorter = more relative stiffness.

barrel length on a scoped rifle (on iron-sighted guns longer barrels increase sight radius which is a whole other topic), simply provides a greater space/time in which the powder can accellerate the bullet. contrary to some beleifs MV does NOT equal accuracy.

SO, the argument for the 18" barrel is that it is stiffer than a longer barrel of similar Diameter, and that it still gives enough MV to reach 1,000yrds requiring only a small amount of additional "come-up" over say a 26" barreled gun.

Barrel stiffness in this context is a canard to the discussion. It is irrelevant because the very minute accuracy advantage of an ultra-stiff barrel is totally subsumed by the environmental effects (mainly wind) at long range; the only place ultra-stiff barrels ostensibly have an advantage is short-range benchrest competition.

The majority of long-range misses occur due to mis-estimation of the overall wind along the bullet path. Longer barrels on average produce higher muzzle velocity. When comparing the same bullet fired at different muzzle velocities, the faster one always has more favorable ballistics.

Here are two common long-range loads, each with a fast and slow version. In each case, the faster one has about 1 MOA less wind drift (10") at 1000 yards. If a stiff barrel gave you 0.25 MOA margin of accuracy (which it won't), a shooter whose estimation was 5 mph off over the entire bullet path would still be better off with the faster load from the allegedly less-stiff barrel.

_Bullet_           _BC_ _MV_         0     250     500     750    1000 | YARDS
155 Scenar        0.508 2900 >    0.00    3.80   16.47   40.41   78.74 | wind (inches)
155 Scenar        0.508 2700 >    0.00    4.21   18.29   45.00   87.50 | wind (inches)
175 SMK           0.51* 2750 >    0.00    4.21   18.31   45.19   88.48 | wind (inches)
175 SMK           0.51* 2550 >    0.00    4.69   20.46   50.69   98.65 | wind (inches)

When you hang a suppressor off a moderately "thin" barrel, some claim you can see the barrel whip. What matters is that it does the same thing every time, not that it doesn't move. You can't stop movement, but it can be repeatable.

 

[green3845]

There is no doubt, all things being equal, that a shorter barrel of equal diameter is stiffer, but that has little or nothing to do with accuracy at extreme ranges.

Palma shooters who shoot at 800, 900 and 1000 yards are required to shoot .308, and if it is a match operated under International rules, they must shoot the 155. Bitter experience has shown them that the 155 must remain supersonic at all ranges, so they favor 30 or 32 inch barrels that can deliver the required velocities at extended ranges.

Even if you shoot 175 Bergers or SMKs, you better have enough barrel to keep it supersonic from a .308.

One guy, quoting from an obscure site, can't overcome almost 40 years of experience from some of the best long range shooters in the world. That's what I found funny! It seems that quite a few people are more than ready to issue opinions about long range shooting, yet they don't compete against people that shoot 1000 yards every week to prove their "expert opinions". If they are such adept long range shooters, they can prove their viewpoints in either F class using scopes and sandbags, or they can sling up and use iron sights alongside Palma shooters.

 

[green3845]

Mr. Smith beat me with a good reply!

If you are really set on shooting long range, don't discount the .223.

Both the Army and Marine Corps Team shooters do very well with AR15s at 1000.

Shooting the .223, with a custom setup, is a lot more economical than shooting a .308, with no real loss of performance compared to a .308.

My wife's long range prone rifle is a Rem 700 in .223. It sports a 30" 6.5 twist PacNor barrel with a Holliger chamber to shoot the 90 gr. JLK bullet. It is very competitive.

While I shoot service rifle, and I am limited to a 20" barrel, also a 6.5 twist PacNor, I'm still competetive at any range with 90 gr. JLKs.

My favorite LR rifle is a Tubb 2000 in 22 BR. It also has a a 30" 6.5 twist PacNor with a Holliger chamber. I don't give up anything winddrift wise to any 6.5/284 or .300 mag, and I only do it with around 25 grains of Varget or N550 and dang little recoil.

 

[Zak Smith]

I am not convinced that a bullet being supersonic is enough. I have shot 308 at some extreme range targets (1350 is far for 308), however, where the computer claimed they should still be above 1200 fps-- only half of them made it onto a 3' plate at that distance. The others seem to have fell out of the sky (ie, no close dust signatures). This is a load that can hit an IPSC head (6x6") at 1000 yards once dialed in. When I switched to my .260, which has a several hundred fps advantage at the same distance, it would drop all the rounds onto the plate.

So just because a computer says it's still supersonic at distance X doesn't mean it's a great performer there.. just that one known ballistic problem is possibly not present.

 

[Detritus]

If you are really set on shooting long range, don't discount the .223.

Shooting the .223, with a custom setup, is a lot more economical than shooting a .308, with no real loss of performance compared to a .308.

Oh i know full well that in a properly build rifle .223 gives up little if anything to the .308 out to 1,000. and If i was able to afford to start out with a custom rifle (or re-barrel a factory one in short order) I very well might have gotten a .223. unfortunately i currently have some budget constraints that keep me from entertaining the custom option. ie i can afford around $1,200 or maybe a little more for the combo of Rifle, scope & mounts, and a batch of either loaded ammo (prefered) or brass. and that's about where it looks like i'll come out with my current plans.

frankly in a year or two the remington I just put on layaway will likely be getting a .260 barrel, along with other upgrades etc.

 

[Howard Roark]

Both the Army and Marine Corps Team shooters do very well with AR15s at 1000.

You will not be seeing the USAMU shoot .223 cal ARs next year for long range at Perry. They didn't even shoot 90 gr bullets last year, they shot 80s. They found that there is not enough velocity with a .223 Rem to keep the 90s consistantly supersonic at 1K. To quote Emil Praslick "the 90s were literally falling out of the air".

Take a look at the scores from last years Farr Trophy match at Perry. This is the service rifle only 1K match. There were only 2 scores higher than 190. I would bet that those two rifles that were shot by non-military shooters that broke 190 were .308s.

The M110 more commonly known as the SR 25 was approved this year by the NRA as a service rifle. This is what the AMU will be shooting SR with at 1K.

 

[tango2echo]

Savage 12 F/TR .308 30" bbl

Savage 112 custom .308 with 20" bbl

Identical glass, rings, bases, and stocks

Both shooting the exact same reloads. Nearly the same accuracy at 200,400,600, and 800 yards. The F/TR groups are half as large at 1000 and beyond. (Sub 1.75MOA at 1000) Formulate your own opinion as to which barrel length is better.

T2E

 

[Detritus]

quick question, are there any issues with .308 similar to what you find when shooting heavier weight bullets in .223?

to be specific, are there any known issues with 175gr factory loads in guns with 1in12 twist barrels?

thinking about ordering up a batch of ammo to build my pool of brass, and to go ahead adn get shooting asap. adn the 168gr match loading is out of stock till mid-march, but the 175s are in stock.

 

[BADUNAME27]

Dear OP.

If your looking at just 600 yard matches for now then a 168 grain bullet is not a bad choice. A Palma 155 isn't either but understand that your twist rate needs to be right for that to really work well. 1-12 or 1-13.

1-10 will too but I've yet to build a gun that shot well when it over stabilized a bullet. I've built a lot of these of guns and some have done exceptionally well in World level events.

Varget is a great powder. The "old" Varget was a little hotter than the late model stuff. With a 155 you can cram 46 grains in there and that'll get you right at about 3050fps from a 30" tube. N140 or N540 are also great choices.

Glass. You get what you pay for and I'll leave it at that. . .

Guns. I personally advocate purpose built rigs. This will surely draw out the thread snipers who claim to shoot sub minute groups with factory Savages and Tasco scopes from 1000's of yards away all for under a thousand bucks. That's great and I wish them the best.

Just remember that it only takes a good barrel and a good scope to exceed that figure by quite a bit. Again, you get what you pay for. I understand we all have budgets and must live within those confines. Long range competitive shooting requires a certain level of disposable income and commitment if you want to do well. I encourage you/anyone to get involved with it as it's a very, very personally rewarding experience.

Just don't set yourself up for failure.


Good luck.

Chad

 

[Detritus]

Dear OP.

Exactly what kind of competitive 1K shooting are you interested in?

Palma
F class
Any/Any
Tactical

most likely F-class, at least that's what their on-line club schedule lists (i'm not a member of the club that holds the 1K matches, so i only know what the post up on the web). like i told Zak i think the rifle i am looking to put together will wind up being one that fits into F-T/R but i need more info before i say that for sure.

I'm headed out shortly to observe the first 600yrd match of the year being held by the club I AM a member of. Gonna talk to the match director find out what they've really got going on etc. i'll post whatever relevant bits i find out.

 

[crebralfix]

Ok, my being a full time student this past year and a couple other things added up to my wife and I getting a larger than normal tax return, and I got my fingers crossed that after all the "have to take care of" stuff is done that we will have enough left to buy a Savage 10FP in .308 to use as the basis for an "as time, money allow" build of a usable 1,000yrd rifle, that on any range trip other than 1K match day, be used for shooting at distances from 100-600. Having only fired maybe 5 rounds total at 1Kyrds i naturally have questions.

Ok, here are both my questions and bits of my previous decisions w/ the logic that cause me to make some of those decisions. i'm certainly up to have any mistakes i've made in my process brought to light.

First i assume that i should stick with variants of the 10FP that have 24" or 26" barrels? I've been told that it doesn't really matter out to around 600yards but out past that the loss of velocity can cause problems.

The Savage 10 FP with 24" barrel is perfectly adequate for shooting out to 1000 yards with match ammo, provided you have a quality scope mount and scope. My gun shoots about 3/4" at 100 yards and would probably do a bit better with a better shooter.

getting it in .308 becasue the choice (factory offering wise) was between .308 and .223 and I KNOW that the factory barrels on the 10FP and 12FV in .223 use a twist rate that is insufficent to stabilize the heavy bullets needed to take a .223 to 1K. ideally i'd get it in .260, and that IS a very likely step in the next few years.

i'm pretty sure that to be able to shoot out to 1K and still have the ability to use the gun for shorter distances i'll need a 20MOA scope base. other than Farrel who all makes quality 20moa bases for Savage rifles?
i found one listed on Midway from EGW, is this one any good?

I have a 20 MOA offset picatinny rail on my gun (I think its Farrel--it was expensive). Depending upon your scope, you may not need it out to 1,000 yards. My advice is that it is expensive and firearm specific...try the gun without it first. The PFI RR800-1 (see below) does not need the offset because of how the reticle is setup.

Anyone on here ever had, used, etc one of the "Super Sniper" scopes from SWFA? I know they are not gonna be the best optics out there but i'm just wanting to get something reasonably priced that i can use until I get my skills and the rest of the package, to a point where i feel justified in paying for higher end glass.

I have no experience with it. Various reviews seemed to be good.

At LRI (longrangeinternational.com), the instructors recommended any scope around $300+, so long as it had some sort of mil-dot or hash system.

what bullet weight should i be looking to use at 600 and 1k?

I used 168 grain Federal match to 1,000 in gusty Wyoming weather. I had no trouble hitting 18"x24" steel and walking the rounds into the center. Group sizes were around 12-15" (maybe 1 MOA if it was calm), depending on how many mistakes the shooter made

The LRI guys (USMC snipers) recommend 175 grain bullets. I only used 168's since they were on sale.

any other advice? i've been shooting for 20 years, but have only fired at 600yards or more 4 or 5 times in my life and as mentioned that includes less than 5 rounds at 1K, so i consider myself a total noob with regard to this subject.

thank you for your time and any advice you can give me. if you need any more info to better help let me know.

Learn to be a good spotter and always use one.

The standard Savage 10FP does not have a raised comb. You will need something to elevate your eye to the level of the scope. If you add a pic rail, you'll need a bit more material. Instead of spending hundreds of dollars on a custom stock, buy $5 of military duct tape and some foam.

I use a Pride Fowler Rapid Reticle RR800-1. This is a 3-9x variable scope. Frankly, I never took it off 9x since I couldn't read it well at 3x. I'd look at the RR800-2, which is 10x only. Unfortunately, they recently raised their prices. However, if you go to an LRI class, their sales rep (who is an awesome shooter) is usually there and can help out a bit.

One guy had a Night Force scope in 22x with illumination. He had it on a DPMS semi-auto rifle. His handle is AzDak...google around tacticalunderground.us and at longrangeinternational.com for his comments.

At 600 yards, once you have your gun's dope, hitting will be easy with the 10FP and a good scope. The trick is consistency in your technique and shooting from prone off a bipod. The problem is getting really small groups, which is where you'll see the difference between a Savage and a custom gun like an Accuracy International. You don't need an expensive rifle to do this well. In fact, I recommend the lower end rifle while you're learning. If you get really serious, then upgrade...but most of those differences will be lost on the new long range shooter. Just keep in mind that many people try to maximize everything, which isn't needed until you're involved with really serious competition.

My formula success was:

1) Quality instruction
2) PFI RR800-1 scope (quality glass with some sort of marks in the reticle)
3) Federal match ammo
4) Bipod and sandsock while shooting from prone
5) Consistency in your shooting

Go take a training course. It will really help.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=371830

As for "Doubting Thomases" regarding Savage performance...I have witnesses.

 

[USSR]

I used 168 grain Federal match to 1,000 in gusty Wyoming weather. I had no trouble hitting 18"x24" steel and walking the rounds into the center. Group sizes were around 12-15" (maybe 1 MOA if it was calm), depending on how many mistakes the shooter made

The LRI guys (USMC snipers) recommend 175 grain bullets. I only used 168's since they were on sale.

Listen to the LRI guys. The 168SMK was developed for 300 meter shooting. It does not typically perform well at 1,000 yards. Unless you are shooting at a fairly high elevation, you stand a good chance of the bullet going transonic on you, and accuracy goes all to hell. I was spotting for a guy shooting the 168SMK's at 1k in F Class a couple years ago, and witnessed this personally.

Don

 

[taliv]

The M110 more commonly known as the SR 25 was approved this year by the NRA as a service rifle. This is what the AMU will be shooting SR with at 1K.

seriously? doesn't that put everyone else at kind of a disadvantage, since m110s aren't exactly available to civilians?

 

[Detritus]

As for "Doubting Thomases" regarding Savage performance...I have witnesses.

there was a long explaination here but i'll save it for a different time

I'M a witness to and near disciple of Savage accuracy (can't say i'm a die hard b/c i couldn't pass up the Remington 70 SPS Varmint i found Thursday), my first savage repeately won me bragging rights, lunch, free beer (and i don't drink cheap beer), and at least twice Money. let's say that i quit betting for anything but friendly terms (food,beer, etc) when i almost had a guy bet his brand new Multi-thousand dollar rig, without looking at my previous targets first.

Note, to those who think money buys accuracy, adn that inexpensive won't shoot: if you see a guy sitting at the bench surrounded by indications that he's been there since early in the day (water jugs etc), Esp. if one of those indications is 150-200 rounds of spent brass (in those little 50rd reloader's flip tops), it probably a wise thing to LOOK at his targets, so you can compare them to YOUR previous groups. BEFORE you open your mouth about how YOUR rifle is a god-killer that will beat anything out there.

doesn't that put everyone else at kind of a disadvantage, since m110s aren't exactly available to civilians?

the SR-25 and similar .308 ARs are available for sale the public, one may not be able to get an exact clone of an M110, but you can get one that shoots just as well that IS legal for both you and the match spoken of above

 

[Detritus]

Almost forgot

I said i'd post more information after i came back from the 600yrd match today..

Exactly what kind of competitive 1K shooting are you interested in?

I plan to shoot in F-T/R but at least one match i'll wind up in F-class open, since a quality bipod isn't really in the inital budget (rifle, scope, and ammo related items being first priority) and i refuse to buy/use a sub standard bipod. Plus i'm doing this for fun i don't care if i have to shoot a few matches in the same division/classification with guys that paid more for their rifles than i did for my last Pickup. for me it's how i shoot compared to the last time that matters, not how i shoot compared to the guy next to me.

Just don't set yourself up for failure.

I am assuming this is your way of saying "don't go so cheap you hobble yourself" or something similar.

to be fully clear what i am building Now is simply a rifle to Get me back on the firing line. I haven't fired a centerfire rifle in about 3 years, my personal skills are so rusty that at this point an "acceptable" rig would out-shoot me.

This rifle WILL be customized/accurized/worked over ever how one wishes to say "it's gonna get tweaked so that it shoots better than I ever will". Exactly how and when isn't known yet, but it will NOT stay box stock, and if my own wishes come true i'll find a sponsor for an apprenticeship soon and be doing some if not all the work myself (figure it's best to run the risk of buggering up my OWN gun the first time around and not a paying customers).