7.62X25 vs 9X18 for Defense Carry

[Hurryin' Hoosier]

Assuming JHPs for both, which would you rather use for personal defense: 7X62X25 Tokarev or 9X18 Makarov? (And please note that I'm asking for opinions on these two calibers only. )

 

[Onward Allusion]

I would have to go with 9x18. Many more options out there for pistols in that caliber. 7.62x25 has umph, but I'm not aware of any hi-cap double action pistols chambered for it. Also, not too many ammo options for the Tokarev round, either.

 

[jmace57]

I have read concerns about the velocity and penetration of the tokarev round...going through multiple walls.

 

[Kosh75287]

Assuming that JHP ammo is available for both, I'd want the tokarev round. Higher velocity increases probability of expansion, without which, neither round is much of a fight-stopper.

 

[Hurryin' Hoosier]

Prvi Partizan makes JHPs in both calibers.

What I'm kicking around is what I want to use for my "truck gun". I've got a vz.82 (12-round 9X18) and a Zastava M57 (9-round 7.62X25). The vz.82 would give me 3 more shots (though that would probably not be that much of a concern, realistically), but the Zastava would probably scare the be-Jesus out of someone whether I hit them or not! I am concerned, though, about over-penetration with the 7.62X25, even with hollow points.

 

[grimjaw]

I can't really look at the caliber alone in this case, because the very few guns currently available in the U.S. for either caliber are Comm-bloc surplus (e.g. TT-33, Makarov PM, etc) or based on those designs. I don't know of more than one manufacturer who currently loads a hollowpoint for 7.62x25 (Prvi), and three or four for 9x18. IMHO, the best thing about 7.62x25 is the (over)penetration ability out of such short barrels; not something I want necessarily out of a self defense round.

Nod goes to 9x18, in the Hornady or Buffalo Bore loading (in a CZ82). Several years ago there seemed to be lots of commercial loadings available for 9x18 (http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?299-9x18-Ammunition-Data; hardly anything now. Wolf lists 9x18 HP in their catalog, but I haven't seen it retailed or online anywhere for a long time.

Fairly recent video of the 9x18 Hornady loading: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O18YhseiQMg
Brassfetcher testing: http://www.brassfetcher.com/9x18mm%20Makarov/9x18mm%20Makarov%20Summary%20Table.pdf (don't think either of the HP rounds he tested are currently available, though)

BrassFetcher's testing on 7.62x25 on a few commercial and hand loads show decent penetration but no more than average expansion on an already smaller diameter bullet than 9x18. http://www.brassfetcher.com/7.62x25mm/7.62x25mm%20Summary%20Table.pdf

RE: post #5, and 'scaring the bejesus' out of somebody: I don't really think it would make much difference. Negligently firing something as small as a .22LR out of a short barrel, indoors and w/o hearing protection deafened me for about two full minutes, and shocked me for about half as long.

jm

 

[Hurryin' Hoosier]

All good points. And I think that I like my vz.82 better, anyway!

 

[Deaf Smith]

Man if they made a DPX for the 7.62x25 that would be something.

The Tok is flatter than the Mak but the Mak is shorter.

If I used the Tok I'd get the Yugoslavian made one with the 1911 style safety.

And, of course, I'd use the EG Mak I have if I decided to use one.

Either will do fine. Just shoot 'em strait.

Deaf

 

[leadcounsel]

Assuming quality JHP ammo and a reliable gun, no question. Tokarev. Super hot round. Excellent stopping power and penetration.

 

[goon]

The Mak.
It fits in more concealable handgun.

The Tok was a great round in an SMG and for the purpose of arming a military force, I guess handguns in it were fine. It's a great range toy now and my dad carried one, but I'd vastly prefer something else.

I'd take the Mak.

 

[MI2600]

There must be some reason the Russian mob likes the Tokarev.

 

[nathan]

If the 9 mm makarov is the choice of KGB assassins, then that tells you something. But the Tokarev round is a nice truck gun to have.

 

[Mike OTDP]

There must be some reason the Russian mob likes the Tokarev.

Body armor.

 

[Deaf Smith]

There must be some reason the Russian mob likes the Tokarev.

I'd say millions of Toks made before and during WW2 is the reason.

I am sure lots of them were hidden away after the war.

Deaf

 

[BSA1]

What grimjaw says.

I can not separate the cartridge from the gun as I view both as essential elements of firearm.

I am not convinced that JHP is the best choice in the 9x18. The old penetration vs. expansion argument. I prefer the FMJ in the CZ82 and P64 as that is what they were designed to use, greater penetration for that less than perfect shot and are the most reliable for feeding and proper functioning of the gun.

 

[BSA1]

There must be some reason the Russian mob likes the Tokarev.

Некоторые итальянские бизнесмены делают нас делом, от которого мы не могли отказаться.

 

[Revolver Ocelot]

I'd only get a tokarev if you anticipate your threat wearing body armor.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Некоторые итальянские бизнесмены делают нас делом, от которого мы не могли отказаться.

My Russian translator says...

"Some Italian businessmen do us by business which we could not refuse".

Somehow I don't think it is right.

Deaf

 

[bannockburn]

Between the two cartridges I would go with the 9x18 in an East German Makarov.

 

[Mayvik]

As a truck gun,Tok only if you feel you may need to shoot at/through vehicle windshields, doors, etc. The 82 is a far better, safer gun to carry.

 

[stressed]

I'm sure you are talking about a pistol, however I just tested various firearms over a chronograph today, PPS43 with Bulgarian surplus FMJ(corrosive berdan primed) 90gr AVG Velocity: 1716 out of 35 rounds from a 35 round magazine.

Now what's odd is when people mention the uber penetration of the Tok. Various +P and +P+ FMJ's and HP's fired out of a 9mm Sterling SMG did more damage to a steel plates of various thickness then the 7.62x25 Tok FMJ.

The lighter faster bullet will defeat steel and other hard barricades, yes.

In flesh? Not so much... you will severely underpenetrate with a JHP of very light weight and fast velocity.

A far as the comparison of 9x18 Mak and the Tok, all the Mak is is a hot .380, and the Tok is far superior. (No, you don't have to worry about overpenetration in flesh with JHP's.)

However, the Tok is hard to come by in JHP loadings, and the Mak has better firearm designs, like the CZ-82.

 

[BSA1]

My Russian translator says...

"Some Italian businessmen do us by business which we could not refuse".

Somehow I don't think it is right.

Deaf

Yep. Something was definitely lost in the translation as the English statement was "some Italian businessmen made us a offer we couldn't refuse."

 

[grter]

I have read the Tok has been compared to the .327 magnum that sounds good.

 

[M2 Carbine]

What I'm kicking around is what I want to use for my "truck gun".

Assuming JHPs for both,

No question, the 7.62x25.

I am a 9x18 fan. I have fourteen 9x18 Makarovs, a 9x18 CZ82, a 9x18 CZ83 and a 9x18 PA63, but the 9x18 round isn't the best vehicle gun because of it's lack of penetration in a low power round.

I want penetration in a vehicle gun. I want the bullet to be able to penetrate the metal of a vehicle and the person inside.
The 9x18 probably won't.
The 7.62x25 probably will.

 

[Hurryin' Hoosier]

No question, the 7.62x25.

I am a 9x18 fan. I have fourteen 9x18 Makarovs, a 9x18 CZ82, a 9x18 CZ83 and a 9x18 PA63, but the 9x18 round isn't the best vehicle gun because of it's lack of penetration in a low power round.

I want penetration in a vehicle gun. I want the bullet to be able to penetrate the metal of a vehicle and the person inside.
The 9x18 probably won't.
The 7.62x25 probably will.

More food for thought!