'72 Open Top Reproduction - How much powder is too much?

Status
Not open for further replies.
bear166

bear166

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2020
Messages
211
Location
Nebraska
Howdy folks. I've been having quite a time loading and shooting .38 Special with blackpowder out of my Cimarron Pistolero lately, but I'm ready to take it to the next level. I'm currently in the market for a SAA clone in .45 Colt, but for the time being, I'm limited to my '72 Open Top for choices in that caliber.

Of course developments in machining allow them to handle more powerful cartridges than the .44 Henry it was initially chambered in to my understanding, but the fact remains that it was a design historically meant to handle weaker cartridges than we have access to now. I have heard it mentioned that even regarding modern open top reproductions, it's important to consider limitations posed by their design.

So that leaves me wondering just what I'm going to be able to safely load this repro revolver with. Obviously I'm not talking about running Ruger loads through it or anything like that - I have a nice moderate smokeless load made up for it already, but regarding blackpowder, is it safe to simply fill up the case with powder (say 35 grains of 3F) under a 250 grain bullet as one might for a SAA, or is that going to prove too stout for an open top?

I'm mainly curious because I'm looking for a pretty stout load once I get a hold of a Model P (considering I already have my .38s for light plinking), and it would be nice to use the same load for both guns, even if a full charge of 35 grains is not really historically accurate out of the '72. But, if I'll need a lighter load in regards to safety, so be it. Just curious what you all have found to work best out of the open tops.

Thanks,
- Bear
 
35gr of 3F is about all you can squeeze under a 250gr bullet. That is exactly what I load and shoot out of my Remington and Walker conversions, and the open top Colts should handle it nicely. If you are concerned about pressures you could always load 2F instead of 3F.
 
Captain*kirk said:
35gr of 3F is about all you can squeeze under a 250gr bullet. That is exactly what I load and shoot out of my Remington and Walker conversions, and the open top Colts should handle it nicely. If you are concerned about pressures you could always load 2F instead of 3F.
Click to expand...

Good to know! Yeah I didn't figure I'd be able to get much more in the case than 35 grains, I'm guessing that should be plenty of kick anyway.

I do have a bit of 2F around, but I mostly reserve it for my Trapdoor since that thing tends to burn through a pound of powder pretty fast (especially now that it's going to be harder to get more). I believe I've read that the powder originally used in the .45 Colt was closer to 2F though so it may be worth looking into.
 
I seldom shoot full house 45 Colt any anything anymore. I use Schofield brass or you could use filler and load 45 Colt down to Schofield levels with about 28 grains under a 200 grain bullet. No question then on power level for an open top plus in my opinion it's a lot more fun. Plus saves powder and with the Goex situation that may now be the most important aspect to think about.
 
Cowhide Cliff said:
I seldom shoot full house 45 Colt any anything anymore. I use Schofield brass or you could use filler and load 45 Colt down to Schofield levels with about 28 grains under a 200 grain bullet. No question then on power level for an open top plus in my opinion it's a lot more fun. Plus saves powder and with the Goex situation that may now be the most important aspect to think about.
Click to expand...

That's certainly a fair point. I do have a considerable amount of 3F, probably enough to last me 5+ years at the rate I shoot pistols, but worth considering.

Captain*kirk said:
One additional thought...an open top C&B Colt .44 regularly shoots 35gr of 3F or equivalent sub with zero issues, on a regular basis. The Dragoon will hold up to 50gr and the Walker, 60.
Click to expand...

I did consider that, but I thought the considerably lighter bullet used in a C&B might alter the equation in some way. Plus, I do think the manual for my Army (most comparable to the '72) lists 30 grains as a max charge, though I could be misremembering and that probably has more to do with capacity than anything.
 
bear166 said:
That's certainly a fair point. I do have a considerable amount of 3F, probably enough to last me 5+ years at the rate I shoot pistols, but worth considering.



I did consider that, but I thought the considerably lighter bullet used in a C&B might alter the equation in some way. Plus, I do think the manual for my Army (most comparable to the '72) lists 30 grains as a max charge, though I could be misremembering and that probably has more to do with capacity than anything.
Click to expand...
It does.
Also bear in mind (see what I did there?):cool: that you are shooting a modern cylinder that is probably equal to the strength of a modern Howell conversion...strong enough to shoot reduced charges of smokeless, even though the lawyers don't want to hear about it. Besides, BP is way more fun. You're not gonna hurt it shooting black powder.
 
I'm in the bunch that shoot '72 OT with 3f, 200gr.bullet and Schofield brass. I do use a .062 card over the powder. Cleaner with a little compression on the powder. Remember to hold your breath till all 5 rds. are fired, then inhale slowly and deep to enjoy properly. A smile will soon follow.
 
I simply fill a ⭐️ line or Winchester case with 3F brim full then seat a 250 grain bullet and roll crimp. Stout load. For a more accurate and pleasant load it’s 28 grains of 3F,a wax over powder card, a lubed felt wad and either a 200 or 250 grain RNFP bullet. I’m shootings conversion cylinders so bullet choice is somewhat limited considering OAL.
 
Captain*kirk said:
It does.
Also bear in mind (see what I did there?):cool: that you are shooting a modern cylinder that is probably equal to the strength of a modern Howell conversion...strong enough to shoot reduced charges of smokeless, even though the lawyers don't want to hear about it. Besides, BP is way more fun. You're not gonna hurt it shooting black powder.
Click to expand...

Jackrabbit1957 said:
Been loading an open top .44 special with 250 grain bullets, case filled to bottom of the bullet with 4f, a cardboard wad added then seating the bullet. No problems noted so far except taking a while to get rid of the silly grin.
Click to expand...

No doubt about that! If it wasn't for the fact that I usually take several guns to the range and only have the patience to clean black powder once, I don't think I'd have any more use for all my smokeless powder. I even find the process of loading black powder more enjoyable for some reason, maybe just because of how giddy I get thinking about shooting 'em later.

Shortgrub said:
I'm in the bunch that shoot '72 OT with 3f, 200gr.bullet and Schofield brass. I do use a .062 card over the powder. Cleaner with a little compression on the powder. Remember to hold your breath till all 5 rds. are fired, then inhale slowly and deep to enjoy properly. A smile will soon follow.
Click to expand...

Wish I had that level of patience, I can't help but get a whiff in after every shot. My favorite part is that it leaves my truck smelling like black powder all day long after the twenty minute drive home, so I get to enjoy that incredible stench twice. :)

whughett said:
I simply fill a ⭐️ line or Winchester case with 3F brim full then seat a 250 grain bullet and roll crimp. Stout load. For a more accurate and pleasant load it’s 28 grains of 3F,a wax over powder card, a lubed felt wad and either a 200 or 250 grain RNFP bullet. I’m shootings conversion cylinders so bullet choice is somewhat limited considering OAL.
Click to expand...

Interesting, I've always heard not to use lubed wads for risk of contaminating the powder. I use a dry card for my 45-70 loads, and haven't bothered trying to use a wad of any kind for my .38 Specials. Have you had any issues with long term storage? Not that my rounds ever last more than a month anyways!
 
bear166 said:
Interesting, I've always heard not to use lubed wads for risk of contaminating the powder. I use a dry card for my 45-70 loads, and haven't bothered trying to use a wad of any kind for my .38 Specials. Have you had any issues with long term storage? Not that my rounds ever last more than a month anyways!
Click to expand...

I did an experiment about 5 years ago. I loaded 50 rounds in the manner I described in my first post in early May of that year Placed in a plastic storage box, nose down and left on top of the bench in a South West Florida garage until the following January. We left for the season in late May The bride and I own a Florida home and winter there. Late Spring Summer and Fall in Rhode Island.
When I returned in January all the rounds functioned fine. In retrospect I should have broken a few down first to see if lube had migrated into the powder and to what degree if.
Note however the wads were self cut from 1/8th wool felt that was lubed with a 50/50 mix of beeswax and solid Crisco. The wads have a hard dry feel to them. I wouldn’t try it with wonder wads or such. The card was cut from waxed 1/2 gallon milk cartons. The 250 grain bullet seated to and roll crimped into the crimping groove. The powder at the time Grafs house brand which was Schuetzen 3F.
That garage by the end of May is around 100 degrees by noon, I have no idea what it would be in June, July or August.
Bees wax melts around 150 degrees the Crisco somewhat lower I’d think.
My guess the interior of a vehicle could get a lot hotter so couldn’t vouch for that kind of storage.
 
whughett said:
I simply fill a ⭐️ line or Winchester case with 3F brim full then seat a 250 grain bullet and roll crimp. Stout load. For a more accurate and pleasant load it’s 28 grains of 3F,a wax over powder card, a lubed felt wad and either a 200 or 250 grain RNFP bullet. I’m shootings conversion cylinders so bullet choice is somewhat limited considering OAL.
Click to expand...
Have you ever chronographed those loads over filled that way? I have, and you don't get any more velocity than filling so you get about 1/8 inch of compression on the powder. About 35 grains in modern cases gets you max velocity, anything else is a waste of powder. Makes a great fireball though.
 
Cowhide Cliff said:
Have you ever chronographed those loads over filled that way? I have, and you don't get any more velocity than filling so you get about 1/8 inch of compression on the powder. About 35 grains in modern cases gets you max velocity, anything else is a waste of powder. Makes a great fireball though.
Click to expand...
Cliff, what are you showing MV at with 35gr of 3F? I don't have a chrono, and was wondering...
 
Shortgrub said:
Stench !!! I must disagree. Nothin that makes people universally smile that much shouldn't be called stench. Scent definitely. Odor, Ohh yea! Ask Pepe' Le Pew.;)
Click to expand...

Haha, I was using the term playfully; make no mistake, there is not a single scent more pleasing to me. Although I think it's fair to say that it is a very aggressive odor, maybe offensive to some even. Certainly not to me! But I bet there are those who would call it a "stench" and they would not say it with nearly as much fondness in their tone as I did - more for us I guess.
 
Cowhide Cliff said:
Have you ever chronographed those loads over filled that way? I have, and you don't get any more velocity than filling so you get about 1/8 inch of compression on the powder. About 35 grains in modern cases gets you max velocity, anything else is a waste of powder. Makes a great fireball though.
Click to expand...
Yes and undoubtedly your correct. It’s easy though no calculating how much powder does it take to just allow the bullet to seat with no air space. Just scoop the case full and seat the bullet.
I don’t use a hand held powder measure I prefer the Lee dippers for range loading.
I’ve chronographed most of my black powder revolvers with and without conversion cylinders.
I dont routainley load those. An old Lyman powder measure set to around 28 grains is used to load most of my 45C cartridges.
 
Not that you want to, or need to, or should, or are going to, but FYI modern cases will hold the full 40 grains of Powder. Under a 256 grain slug, in my El Patron with 5.5" barrel, 40 grains of 4fg produces a low of 989fps and a high of 929fps. I believe that load will produce 1000fps or close to it in a 7.5" barrel.

However, for your purposes and in a open-top 30grains would be a nice load.
 
I am guessing you are buying a revolver and not a kit. It will be an Italian revolver. Because it is a completed revolver it will have been to a proof house and proofed with industry standard proof loads. It will be safe with any standard factory load you are willing to fire.


Kevin
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

C
  • Locked
How Much Compression Is Too Much?
Replies
11
Views
845
cogburn
C
E
  • Locked
Having a hard time deciding.
Replies
2
Views
743
45 Dragoon
45 Dragoon
J
  • Locked
To Buy An Open Top Revolver ?
2
Replies
36
Views
2K
halfmoonclip
H
P
  • Locked
Stopping power of BP vs. Modern Cartridges
2 3 4
Replies
82
Views
13K
Erich
Erich
T
  • Locked
Cimarron Revolvers
2
Replies
39
Views
4K
messerist
M
Back
Top