77/357 Barrel Leading

[c1ogden]

I took my 77/357 to the range for the first time and did what I thought was reasonably well considering the iron sights and my poor (old) eyesight. Before my second trip I added a scope but didn't clean the gun. On my second trip to the range the groups were worse than the first time. Upon returning home I checked the bore and found it was so badly leaded that it looked like a smoothbore. I was using Federal's 38G load, a 158gr SWCHP+P and the gun had a total of 150-200 rounds through it. I haven't tried the gun with jacketed bullets yet but I was surprised at how badly the barrel got fouled. Using the same ammo (from the same case) in my Winchester 94 .357 produces almost no leading at all so I'm wondering if there's a problem with the Ruger's bore. The bore looks okay but I'm not sure I'd be able to see any excessive roughness with the naked eye. Anybody else experience this? I really like the gun so I hope this is something that can be fixed. All suggestions appreciated!

 

[cmb3366]

Cast lead bullets are all about matching bullet size to the individual bore, then lead hardness and lubricant to the individual load and barrel length. With undersized bullets, bullets that are too hard for a given load, or bullets with a stiff commercial lube, leading is a frequent occurrence. This is not really a problem as leading is easy to remove, try wrapping a worn-out bore brush with a bit of copper chore boy, the lead will come right out.

My 77/357 has a bore that slugs right at .358, I size my bullets to .359 for optimum accuracy, and lube with White label BAC. My plinking load is 5.5gr of HP38 under a 158gr FPBB cast from straight clip-on wheel weights. This load does not lead, and is as accurate as I have found after significant workup. My hunting load is a max charge of 2400 under a 158gr SWC-GC, this time water-quenched for hardness, and it does not lead.

 

[dieselchief]

I may be incorrect but I believe those bullets are not cast but swaged. if so they are more than likely soft. I have done the same to many of my revolvers before the learning curve about lead bullets. dieselchief

 

[RecoilRob]

Sure wouldn't hurt to give the Ruger bore a good scrubbing with JB Bore Paste just to polish it up a bit. Seems that many factory rifles come with less than optimally polished bores and a little elbow grease can shine them up well enough that leading should be greatly reduced.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Is the leading all the way down the bore? Or does it get worse as it gets towards the end?
Leading towards the end of the barrel is indicative of a lube issue.

With a rifle or carbine's longer barrel, this can be an issue. The lube simply plays out before it reaches the end of the muzzle.

If it is all the way down the bore, it may be too soft or too small.
A bullet that is not a few thousandths over the bore size will lead nearly every time.

 

[DeadEye9]

Is the leading all the way down the bore? Or does it get worse as it gets towards the end?
Leading towards the end of the barrel is indicative of a lube issue.

With a rifle or carbine's longer barrel, this can be an issue. The lube simply plays out before it reaches the end of the muzzle.

If it is all the way down the bore, it may be too soft or too small.
A bullet that is not a few thousandths over the bore size will lead nearly every time.

This is exactly true in my experience as well. Another thing going against the lead is velocities get much higher with a carbine and sometimes certain lead projectiles don't do well over a threshold of 1200fps or so when the Bore size isnot properly matched. The 77 is a decent rifle; my cousin also has one in .357. He shoots mostly the jacketed rounds that I load for him, but also some factory stuff. He has come to not shoot .38 out of it in general because the accuracy is nowhere near as good as with .357 jacketed loads. I load him a 130gr at ~1500 from the carbine and it provides great, easily useable accuracy out to 100-150 yards. The second load is a 158 JSP sportsman bullet loaded to around 1380fps. Again very accurate but the idea behind this one was a dual purpose target/close range hunting load. (Again he only uses the rifle inside of 100-150yds max)
Anyway, I don't know if this information helps you any, but he hasn't had any issues with jacketed rounds so maybe clean her up and try the accuracy with some of those, and again .357 is more accurate than .38 by and large in the 77. Good luck.

 

[c1ogden]

Rob - I'm starting with your suggestion as that's the easiest and hopefully that will be all that is needed.

cmb - thanks for the info but I don't handload anymore. I was really hoping to get the gun to work with the Federal load as I have about 5 cases of it. If Rob's idea doesn't help I'm going to have both rifles slugged to see if that is making the difference.

Paul - the leading goes all the way down the barrel. Some spots were so bad it looked like molten lead was poured into the barrel.

DeadEye - that was my first thought, that the extra velocity was the culprit but I noticed that it wasn't a problem in the Winchester (which has a longer barrel) so I began to suspect a barrel problem.

Thank you all for your help. I don't hunt so this is just a fun gun but I would like it to be as accurate as possible. It may become a truck gun when I move to America (hopefully later this year).

 

[DeadEye9]

I think there's something in the constitution that says when you move to America your truck gun has to be an AR or AK variant. Just kidding, in any event try some .357 mag after cleaning the bore thoroughly and see what she does. I asked my cousin and he said hands down his rifle does not like the .38 and has caused various issues regardless of the loading but .357 all works fine. Let us know how it works out.

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

I may be incorrect but I believe those bullets are not cast but swaged. if so they are more than likely soft. I have done the same to many of my revolvers before the learning curve about lead bullets. dieselchief

This^^^ and that barrel may need broken in maybe by some good hot .357 jacketed rounds and a thorough cleaning before giving it another shot. Too Bad those weren't coated bullets...id be interested to see if they had faired a lot better!

 

[Lloyd Smale]

I routinely shoot a couple hundred jacketed bullets in a new gun and then clean before shooting cast. It will smoothen things up a tad if it isn't to rough.

 

[CoalTrain49]

This^^^ and that barrel may need broken in maybe by some good hot .357 jacketed rounds and a thorough cleaning before giving it another shot. Too Bad those weren't coated bullets...id be interested to see if they had faired a lot better!

Coated works fine with no leading. I've loaded 125's and 158's using 2400/Bayou bullets and never had a problem. I've started at the low end and went almost to a max load. I bought my gun new and have about 500 rounds thru it. Accuracy still isn't where I want it (2moa/5 shots) but I have a plan to get it there. Target trigger, bolt shims, new stock in that order. I just installed a new trigger and she goes to the range tomorrow for a check. I have a theory that these guns won't shoot with any kind of precision with a warm barrel. I limit my strings to 5 shots and let it cool down. I get much better results doing that. I take two rifles to the range and alternate to let the barrel cool. I broke the barrel in using jacketed bullets and went to coated.

If you don't reload I would find the hottest FMJ ammo I could. They seem to shoot better with hotter loads. Never had any luck with 38 spl in this rifle. They feed but the accuracy is dismal.

These are slick little rifles but some need a little help. They can be made to shoot reasonably well.

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Sorry Coaltrain49 I forgot to mention in his particular gun given the circumstances. But I'm with you I've been coating them for a couple years now and I Love them.

Coated works fine with no leading. I've loaded 125's and 158's using 2400/Bayou bullets and never had a problem. I've started at the low end and went almost to a max load. I bought my gun new and have about 500 rounds thru it. Accuracy still isn't where I want it (2moa/5 shots) but I have a plan to get it there. Target trigger, bolt shims, new stock in that order. I just installed a new trigger and she goes to the range tomorrow for a check. I have a theory that these guns won't shoot with any kind of precision with a warm barrel. I limit my strings to 5 shots and let it cool down. I get much better results doing that. I take two rifles to the range and alternate to let the barrel cool. I broke the barrel in using jacketed bullets and went to coated.

If you don't reload I would find the hottest FMJ ammo I could. They seem to shoot better with hotter loads. Never had any luck with 38 spl in this rifle. They feed but the accuracy is dismal.

These are slick little rifles but some need a little help. They can be made to shoot reasonably well.

2MOA for a 77/357 is not bad by any means!. Heck I would venture to say your doing quite well with coated bullets and a pistol caliber. Although the 158gr do have some length to them which will help with stability. Add the right twist and velocity bumps accuracy up a tad too. To be honest with a rifle style .357 bullet you may fair much better. Not sure there are any out there commercially but there are a few guys who ordered rifle profiled bullet molds in .357 and you might get one of those guys to send you a few. that should get the target shooting juices flowing

Coated bullets have come a long way. A lot is not known about their capability yet but man is it moving fast. Thiers a guy on the castboolits forum whos been running some full power rifle loads using cast bullets with sub MOA at 350yds. The higher velocity causes some build up quickly but after Nose sizing, Groove sizing, and sizing the bore rider portion to match the Bore and improve bullet geometry to be more consistent he has proven that this is just the surface. Great thread and some are running them without issue in their AR15's as well. Check it out if you get a chance.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?315642-Accurate-PC-350-Yds-part-1

 

[CoalTrain49]

^
Thanks. I'll take a look at that. I don't cast but I'm always looking to dial in a good bullet and load.

These rifles are a hoot

 

[greyling22]

I have found that nothing gets lots of lead out of a bore better than a copper chore boy scouring pad. Cut a little off, wrap it around your bore brush and go to town.

 

[GooseGestapo]

I had a Ruger M77/357.
With some old stock Remington bulk 158gr SPT loaded over 17.8 gr of Hodgdon Lil'Gun it would give 1,900+ fps and 5-shot 1.5" groups.
However, I got it to shoot CAST bullets. After starting fooling with it, I discovered via RugerForum and castboolits.com that the throats weren't conducive to accuracy with cast bullets. Some have reported good accuracy by setting the barrel back one thread, and recutting the throats with a shallower lead.

I simply sold mine for more than I paid for it. 6mos later, it was for sale again at another shop. I suppose that's why Ruger has discontinued them.
I think you've got more than simply a leading issue.

 

[SlayerOfBunnies]

I feed mine Berry's copper coated 158s for practice rounds and jacketed stuff for hunting. Accuracy is decent for a handgun round and leading clearly won't be an issue.