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870 Actions

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by ZGunner, Sep 27, 2012.

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  1. ZGunner

    ZGunner Member

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    Is there a difference between actions on the 870 line up (Express, Tactical, Wingmaster, Police)? I know the Magnum vs non magnum there is a differnece in ejection port legnth.

    Bottom line, are they all the same shotgun wearing different stocks and barrels?
     
  2. Jeff F

    Jeff F Member

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    There is no difference in the ejection port lengths, the receivers on the 2 3/4 and 3 inch guns are the same. the difference is the ejector and ejector spring. You can retrofit a 2 3/4 inch receiver with the magnum ejector and spring and with a 3 inch chambered barrel shoot the 3 inch loads.
     
  3. shiftyer1

    shiftyer1 Member

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    finish and quality
     
  4. Virginian

    Virginian Member

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    Not exactly. The Express - and the Tacticals I have seen are basically Expresses with different do dads added - has a lot less final polishing and fitting. It works, but it is built to compete at a price point. And it employs several MIM (molded) parts where the Police and Wingmaster utilize forged and machined versions. Some police versions have a stronger magazine spring and I am thinking there was one more part I can't remember at the moment.
     
  5. AI&P Tactical

    AI&P Tactical Member

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    They are the same. There is nothing inside to polish. Anyone who says there is does not know the weapon and anyone charging money saying they do this is a thief. So before anyone says there is something to polish you should be ready to name the part and explain how and why it is polished. Since you can't, I don't expect anyone to come back with such false information.

    There is only one 870 and the differ only by finish furniture and a couple small parts. The internal parts difference in the EXpress is only $6 less then the Police and Wingmaster. That is for the MIM extractor.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2012
  6. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    870 receivers of the same gauge and receiver code differ only in external finish. The receiver code (last letter in the serial #) says how the shotgun was originally set up as far as the shell length was concerned. That's pretty much just a matter of what ejector is installed in the receiver, as far as the receiver is concerned.

    Internal parts may differ, but the receivers are pretty much the same, with the above caveats.
     
  7. jaguarxk120

    jaguarxk120 Member

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    If the recievers are the same. Then why does a Express sound and feel like a rusty chain, or as if it has a bunch of rocks in it when operated???

    A Wingmaster is smooth and slick when operated.
     
  8. Deus Machina

    Deus Machina Member

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    From a quick examination of a friend's relative's 870's, the difference is in the finish, furniture, and how much they polish contact surfaces inside.

    The express felt rough compared to the hairloom wingmaster. I assume locking lugs of some sort (I'm not familiar with 870s) and the contact points on the pump assembly.

    This could just be that the Wingmaster was a lot older, worn in, and perhaps better polished to begin with. On the other hand, the chamber was very obviously smoother than the Express's, which would explain the 'sticking bolt' complaints I've heard about new Express models. That tends to clear up when someone stops using steel-based shells or polishes the chamber up.
     
  9. oldguy870

    oldguy870 member

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    AIP hit the nail on the head.

    My Wingmaster is just as smooth as my Express.

    I love the 870 shotgun. I just wish they cycled the steel hulled Federals better. I have had mine polished and even had the chambers recut by a gunsmith. They still hang up sometimes. My Benellis each the Federal steel hulled shells like candy.
     
  10. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    The 3.5" guns have an elongated ejection port, but the receiver is the same as the others.
     
  11. RickMD

    RickMD Member

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    One's pretty and the other is ugly.
     
  12. AI&P Tactical

    AI&P Tactical Member

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    The winer is RickMD, could not have said it better.

    Remember the Remington 700 ADL? It was the exact same weapon as the CDL or BDL except it had an inexpensive synthetic stock and no floor plate. Same rifle but without the beautiful stocks on the CDL and BDL. The only reason the ADL went away is other manufactures were cutting into Remington's market share and they needed a cheaper version to complete at the lower end. The came a series of 710 7 this and that and who knows what is next. But those are not 700's. The entry level 700 is now the 700SPS and it is every bit as good as any 700.

    So much of this is "Marketing". For Example: The Remington Special Purpose is simply the same applied matte finish as the Express but the metal is polished more before the application. I learned this by asking why the same barrel labled Special Purpose was $40 more then the exact same barrel labeled Express. Man that is a lot of polishing. If you look real close at both barrels you can even tell the Speical Purpose finish appears smoother. Like that matters. Here is a case of a buyer thinking he is getting a better finish when it is still the same Express finish.

    Much of the pricing at Remington would drive you up wall if you did not know why. For example: The 18.5" Matte finish bead sight Express barrel retails from Remington for $131 and this is the barrel that comes on the Express HD 4+1 and used to come on the 6+1. Yet, the 18.5" Parkerized bead sight barrel that comes standard on the 870 Police retails from Remington for $101. Yep, the Express barrel cost $30 more then the Police barrel.

    Now I am having fun. That 18.5" Parkerized Police that cost $101, get that in 20" Parkerized bead sight and it is $150. However, the 18.5" Bead sight blued Wingmaster barrel is $150 and if you get that barrel in 20" it is $117. Anyone confused yet? And yes, these type of difference occur all through the Remington parts list as I purchase over 60K in parts alone each year with a high of over $80K in 2009 thanks to O'boma so I know the parts list very well.

    Now for the answer. It is a combination of Marketing and units manufactured. At least that was the answer I go when I was at Ilion. So with the facts above sinking in to some of you who can't accept the Express, the Police and Wingmaster as the same weapon I invite you to look over the Remington parts list. For Example: Stipped Parkerized Police receiver $247. Stripped Express receiver $247. Stipped Wingmaster receiver $247. Express breech bolt $97, Police Breech bolt $97, Chrome Wingmaster breech bolt $97. and of course there are only two forend tube assemblies made, one for the Super Mag and one for all other 870's and there is a $5 difference in the trigger plate assemblies between the Police and Express as one if polmer and one cast aluminum but all the parts are the same, every freaking one but a little black spring, but the Wingmaster cast aluminum trigger plate is $84 same as the Express. If you built a 4+1 police and 4+1 Express with the bead sight barrels and with the exact same stocks the 4+1 Express would cost you $26 more to build the 4+1 Police. See any Marketing here?
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2012
  13. Virginian

    Virginian Member

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    Caveat - there have been Special Purpose models of Remington shotguns that sported a genuine Parkerized finish. I know, I sold several, and my buddy still has his.
     
  14. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    All I know is that I will buy every used older model 870 Express that I can find at a good price. Unfortunately 'good price' is getting harder and harder to find these days, and seems to keep going up and up. Can't imagine why that is...

    Stripped down to the receiver group, it's possible to put together almost anything you want as far as a pump shotgun is concerned with an 870 receiver. Furniture, barrels, sights, accessories, magazine capacity, name it and it can probably be done (with enough money anyway). It's like the Lego set of shotguns.
     
  15. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    The ADL never went away. They are not cataloged, but are all over the place in most of the big box stores such as Walmart, Sportsmans Warehouse, and Dicks. The blue versions with a cheap scope are around $350, $480 in stainless. Much better choice for only a little more money than the 770.
     
  16. AI&P Tactical

    AI&P Tactical Member

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    Still around. Good to know. I guess those stores order them as they are no longer part of the Remington product line. You can have any veriation of a Remington made for you as long as you buy a 500 minimum and the stores you mentioned sure buy that many. Or those are left overs and will soon be gone.
     
  17. 78tsubaki

    78tsubaki Member

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    AI&P is the resident expert on this subject. I agree that typically little or no difference exists. I have learned a lot from his posts.
    I own new and well worn examples of express and police 870s.
    I purchased an express a few years ago that surprised me. I disassembled to clean it before I shot it like we all do:) I found 2 small burrs that I was able to remove with a light file and sand paper. These 2 small burrs might have been caught in a police build maybe not. They might have affected the way the gun performed maybe not. One burr was on the bolt. I guess I am just obsessive but man that express eats everything I feed it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2012
  18. greyling22

    greyling22 Member

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    ummmm, I've got to agree with jaguar. At least comparing an older wingmaster to old or new expresses. The old wingmasters (I haven't handled a new one) are slick and smooth: polished bolts, blued reveivers, it's nice. The older expresses have a rough kind of parkerized finish, they drag and grind, but they work, and they were still slicker than the ones I saw 3 years ago (laminated wood stocks). I don't know if anything has changed in the past 3 years.

    mechanically I think they're all the same.
     
  19. AI&P Tactical

    AI&P Tactical Member

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    thanks for the compliment but I am sure Fred has forgot more then I know so I am by no means the resident expert. I just know the Remington shotgun because I used one for all those years and I go to Ilion and get the facts. And I work on hundreds of them a year in all models, even the Super Mag and the Marine. Heck do something that many times and something has to stick.

    As for the Wingmaster being smoother. Yes, out of the box. The internal of the Wingmaster receiver is blued and this is smooth from the get go in the receiver channels the action bars slide in. All forend tube assemblies made have the same finish except of course for the Marine. So what little contact occurs inside the receiver is between the action bars and those channels. With a parkerized or matter finish weaopn this area become smoothed out with round count. Soon there is not difference between the feel of your Wingmaster and an Express or P model. So a guy shooting an older Wingmaster with a high round count is naturally going to say it is smoother then an Express. But once that Express has the same round count they are the same. They have to be people. Same exact parts.

    If you want an un-smooth 870 get the Marine. I don't know how many rounds it takes to smooth one of them out. I hate that model and stopped building them as Parkerizing is just as good in that enviroment.
     
  20. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    I just work on (mostly) my own 870s - I don't see dozens or hundreds of them in a year go across the bench like AI&P does (I can only afford one at a time :D). I'm definitely no expert by any means, I've just seen a few things along the way. But there's still lots more for me to learn - if anything, I'm a student, not an expert.
     
  21. Dave McCracken

    Dave McCracken Moderator In Memoriam

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    It's like AI&P said. The only Express here is the 20 gauge the kids learned on before I put a full length stock on. After 1500 rounds or so, it's almost as smooth as my venerable 12 bore Wingmasters. Another 1K rounds should do it.
     
  22. content

    content Member

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    Hello friends and neighbors // Would someone please explain the difference in the 20ga. LW suffix receiver and the X.
    Why the barrels are not interchangable like the rest.
     
  23. oldguy870

    oldguy870 member

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    I have 6 870s. I have had the chambers recut on 3 of them. I have done AIP's polish job on all of them at least 3 times each.

    I took my Wingmaster and two of my Expresses out today. I fired 25 rounds of AA Winchester brass loads through each gun. No problems. Every gun fired perfectly.

    I then tried the Federal steel based rounds you buy at Walmart for $23 for 100 rounds. Immediate problems in the Wingmaster and one of the Express guns. Sticky chamber. I have to slam the gun on the ground to eject the round.

    I think the bottom line is that the 870 has problems with steel base shotgun shells. Both the Wingmaster and one Express had the chamber recut and polished. Then, I did AIP's steel wool polish job.

    My Benelli M2s eat these rounds by the thousands.
     
  24. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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  25. AI&P Tactical

    AI&P Tactical Member

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    Yes, the LW is a smaller size receiver and the older version of the 20ga 870 are build on the 12ga receiver. Good news is on those older weapons any 12ga stock fits, bad news is they don't make the barrels any more. Since the receiver is a 12ga on these older models the barrel would have to be the same size as the 12ga at the barrel root where it fits into the receiver.

    Sorry was grilling and came back to answer this and did not noticed it was answered.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2012
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