870 and Trap

[johnmcl]

Hi all,

I have two desires for the near future, 1) a new trap gun and 2) an 870. My question here is whether both can be served with the same move.

I've seen on the Remington webpage the 870 Trap Classic. From inspection this appears to be a 30 in 870 with a Monte Carlo stock. So far so good, and I like that the cost is half of a BT-99 ($670 from Wally World). The specialized chokes are probably more marketing than anything.

So the question is whether an 870 is an appropriate trap gun? I love to keep things simple in life, and that extends to my guns. The 870 is nothing, if not simple in its design.

To keep the discussion focused:

1) Is an 870 a reasonable trap gun from experience?
2) Is the 870 Trap Classic worth an additional $120 over a standard 870 for trap?
3) Is the 870 Trap Classic with a 26 in barrel usable in Skeet?
4) Does a standard stock transform the Trap Classic to a standard 870?

Thanks in advance,

 

[ATAShooter]

I have seen many a 870 shooter take home a trophy in trap. Rudy Etchen , one of the trap greats, used a 870 trap. Here are your good points:

1- The price range gives you a " Bona-fied " trap gun at a price you can afford.

2- The 870 is a durable shotgun that can handle the amount of shooting you are going to do. It is a rock solid gun. I know one guy who has over 500,000 rounds thru his and it still breaks the hell out of targets.

3- In the event something fails, the 870 is popular enough that part availability will not be an issue.

4- If you would like to use your 30" trap gun for skeet, there are 26" barrels avail. Simple change.

5- Trap barrels ARE different from standard. Usually the point of impact is higher on a target shotgun.

There are probably a million other good things folks can say.

Also, just so you know.... I shoot a winchester M-12. So these observations are not from a Remington lover's point of view.

I think it will serve you well.

 

[don95sml]

When I started trap shooting in Wisconsin years ago I used an ordinary field grade 870. With practice you can become a mighty good shooter with it. But after a few years I convinced myself that I could get a few more 24s and 25s with a better gun, so I bought a BT99. That took a while getting used to, but it actually did improve my scores. Never tried a 870 Trap model, but it probably would have done better than the field grade. Years later I moved down to Virginia and found that very few folks here are interested in trap. So I learned to shoot skeet. I've seen guys do quite well with a 870 in skeet. But I don't think you can handle doubles nearly as well with a pump gun unless you're a very fast shooter (which I'm not). My preference, and that of most around here, is an over/under or a semi-auto.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Use an 870 for trap? Heck,yes.

I used an 870 TB for 5 years or so, got a number of straights wth it.

Shot SC with it also, using a more open choke in a tubed barrel. And some skeet.

The ONLY reasons I now shoot with an O/U is I wanted a change and am tired of picking up empties when I shoot doubles.

Before I bought a new Trap Classic, I'd look around for a classic trap grade.TBs and TCs are out there for less than $500.

The Monte Carlo stock oft seen of trap 870s can be used for field work. It does add a little weight.

HTH....

 

[Superreverb]

I started shooting trap with a plain-jane 870 with mole-skin on the comb to raise my cheek up a bit. Soon, started getting serious and getting good, so my Father bought me an 870-TC with a Monte Carlo stock, 30" bbl w/Remchokes. When The Old Man stopped shooting about 10-years ago he gave me his 1966 vintage 870-TC with a 34" full choke bbl. It's all I use now for trap - going on 10-years

Yes - an 870 is fine for trap.

BTW - Hiya Dave!!!! We're pretty much all moved in to the new house. Life will be hectic for another month or so, 'til the old place in Silver Spring goes on the market and sells. Hope to see you soon! Regards - Ed

 

[das028]

Its what i use. Started out has a basic wungmaster, but some "classic trap" wood from remington, and a target barrel.

Turns them to dust

 

[bakert]

Years ago, although never a competitor, I shot a quite bit of skeet at a local club with a field model 870 bored IC, and occasionally a few rounds of trap using a borrowed gun from a few of the regulars. There was one older guy that used an 870 for both, just switching barrels. Thing about this old guy, he was one of the better shooters in a club with members that used high dollar guns set up specifically for each sport, including Win Model 12s, Browning autos, Ithaca single barrels, and Browning Superposed. I still remember drooling over some of those shotguns I couldn't afford.

 

[Sven]

Are doubles tough? I'm thinking about giving it a whirl with the wingmaster... I'm sure I'll get funny looks from the "boys" with their 10K fancy O/Us.... might be worth it just for that alone.

 

[starsandstriper]

most definately

i just shot my first 24 with an 870 trap that i got in awesome condition with nice wood for only 225.00, yes i said 225.00. it is an awsome gun, and in my opinion, the monte carlo stock makes all the difference. It is the same as a regular wingmaster, with a different stock like you said. but for the price it would cost to convert a wingmaster into a trap gun, you wont save much. one more thing, the older remingtons have nicer checkering and fit and finish, so go used.

 

[farscott]

1) I have both the 870 Classic Trap with the Monte Carlo stock and the 870TB with a straight trap stock. Both are great for trap. I am still trying to figure out which stock I shoot better.

2) The Classic Trap comes with a thirty-inch barrel and three Rem Choke tubes meant for trap as well as the Monte Carlo stock. If you like the Classic Trap stock, it is a great deal for the money as you cannot get another stock for less than the price difference between the regular 870 and the Classic Trap.

3) Usable in skeet, "yes". Suitable, I am not sure. The stocks and ribs on trap guns are designed to allow one to "float" the bird above the barrel, or, to put in another way, to make the gun shoot high. In skeet, that may not be what you want, but it may be. I shoot skeet better with a trap gun than I do with a "real" skeet gun. I would try skeet with a trap gun with a much more open choke tube before buying another gun. Of course, I probably would trip over myself buying a 870SA or 870SB (did Remington make a B-grade skeet 870?) if one became available.

4) Standard stock and standard barrel. The trap barrel is longer with a higher rib.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Good to see ya, Ed. When the dust settles, come on back.....

 

[Pessimist]

Using an 870 Classic Trap for shooting trap works well for most people who try it. The 870 is one hell of a good gun, whether you're shooting trap -- or goblins. But if you are determined to stay on a fairly modest budget for your trap gun, I'd suggest you spend a little more and get the 1100 Classic Trap. It'll be much better for doubles (when I shoot doubles with a pump gun, the pumping motion throws me off too much -- doubles are hard enough without that!) and the semi-auto action will dampen recoil a little. You can put on a shell catcher, making dealing with empties just as easy as it is with an 870. In either case, you're going to be picking up empties after a round of doubles -- or at least someone will be. (At my club, we're expected to pick up our own empties during practice rounds.) Of course, with the 870 you'll only be dropping half as many on the ground as with an 1100. And the 1100 demands quite a bit more maintenance/cleaning than the 870 does.

There is one main downside to buying an 1100 Classic Trap: it is ammo-specific. You shouldn't shoot anything more potent than an ounce-and-an-eight of shot and three-and-a-quarter drams equivalent of powder (or less than an ounce of shot and two-and-three-quarters drams equivalent of powder). So if you also want to use your gun for defense or hunting, the 1100 Classic Trap wouldn't be a good choice. Shooting "full house" buckshot or pheasant loads through it might be a mistake. I'm not sure exactly what would happen, but I suspect the receiver would be under quite a bit more stress as the bolt slams back harder. A few "emergency" rounds might be OK, but shooting it enough to get well acquainted with it might be too much. Especially light loads will often not cycle the gun.

If that is your budget situation, and you can't afford a one-purpose trap gun, then the 870 would be a better choice. But if you do have a more accomodating budget, I'd recommend a Citori XT Trap, with an adjustible comb and 30" ported barrels. In the long run, if you stay with trapshooting, you'll be glad you got it.

 

[johnmcl]

Learned Much

Hi all,

First thanks for the time taken to express your thoughts and advice. I really do appreciate it.

Pessimist: Thanks for the thoughts on the 1100 Competition. I went through an agonizing decision process last fall on what gun other than my dad's Model 12 should I shoot for both skeet and trap. Remington made it easy for me by discontinuing the 11-87 Premier. I got one for a great price with two barrels. So, for a one-gun arsenal for trap, skeet, and field work I'm set. Awesome gun, by the way. I haven't found a shell it wouldn't shoot.

Remington was very helpful today in describing what makes the 870 Classic Trap . It is the Monte Carlo stock and not the barrel on this gun. The barrel is a standard 30 in, but with special chokes. I also learned that all Remington barrels are designed to be 50/50. That means that half the shot is above the aiming point and half is below. So, take this Classic Trap barrel and it'll run fine on a Wingmaster.

I appreciate all the other insights that show me an 870 Classic Trap is a viable alternative. I had to do research to find what an 870-TC and TB are. There's a big gun show in northern VA this weekend. I'll scout the tables for one. If that fails then I think its the Classic Trap for me. Unless of course, I just decide on a regular 870 Wingmaster. I just love old simple guns

I shoot in the low 20's with my 11-87 and love beating guys with considerably more expensive guns. I can only imagine the fun doing such with an 870.

 

[Calliope]

Hey John,

What day are you going to the gun show? I was thinking about going just to look around. I am still cruising for a really nice set of 1100 wood. I can go either day, sat or sun, just need to make it earlier in the day.

Let me know, maybe I can meet you there?

Calli

 

[Dave McCracken]

John, Letter grade trap 870s were produced at various times in thr past. A TA had slightly better wood than standard WMs, TBs better yet. TC grade had great wood and cut checkering rather than the impressed stuff we all are used to.

D grade had 50% of the receiver engraved, F had 100%. These were Custom Shop products.

Some of these had Monte Carlo combs and some had straight stocks.

 

[johnmcl]

In the Market

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the insight into the trap grades. I did some research that confirms your views.

I'll be looking hard over the weekend at the gun show and my club's swap meeting for a 870 Tx, where x = A/B/C. I'd certainly appreciate you keeping an eye out for the same as this could be a long shopping process.

Thanks again for the leadership,

 

[Dave McCracken]

John, check your PMs....

 

[Rollin Oswald]

870s - Great for 'some' shooters

You have heard form shooters who like 870s and they are good guns, mechanically. What isn't so good for some shooters is the way they fit.

Gun fit describes the way the five primary stock dimensions (length of pull, drops at the comb and heel, cast and pitch) match the size and shape of the shooter. "Match" means that the dimensions allow the shooter to use the shooting form (stance, gun mount, body posture) that time has shown result in the highest scores. If the stock dimensions don't fit, the form cannot be used.

870s have two relatively common problems. The first is common with many other guns, that of the comb's being at the wrong height. With a Monte Carlo stock that is relatively close to being parallel with the barrel's rib, unless it is the correct distance below the rib, the shooter either has to reduce the pressure of his cheek on the comb or use way too much pressure to vertically align the eye with the rib. Neither is a good idea because the pressure is unlikely to remain constant during swings to targets. When that happens, the pattern will go above or below where it is expected.

The other dimensions that often causes problems is the pitch of the stock. Pitch is the angle of the butt relative to the rib. If the bottom "toe" of the stock sticks out too far, the stock is said to have too little pitch. This is relatively common for 870 shooters.

When the toe of the stock sticks out too far, the barrel rise during recoil is significantly increased, often to the point of bashing the shooter in the cheek, e.g. cheek slap.

And not only can too little pitch cause cheek slap but the toe can dig into the shoulder during recoil. This is especially troublesome to younger and female shooters who, it is rumored, are built differently than guys.

Finally, too little pitch can cause shooters to cant - twist or rotate - their guns to put the toe of their recoil pads in their armpits. This works fairly well providing the gun does not shoot high as many trap shooters prefer. When the gun's point of impact is above its point of aim (shoots high) rotating a gun around the axis of the bore will move where the pattern goes.

A right-handed shooter who cants his gun (counterclockwise) will move his gun's point of impact to the left. That isn't too bad when all targets travel from right to left. Unfortunately, the don't. Some go the other way and they are the ones that are likely to be misses by shooting behind them

Anyway, 870s are very good guns when they fit. When they don't, like guns costing ten times as much, the people who shoot them will never be able to shoot up to their full potential. That realization is why stock fitting has become of such interest to knowledgeable shooters, regardless of the shooting discipline that interests them.
http://stockfitting.virtualave.net

Rollin

 

[Dave McCracken]

Welcome aboard, Rollin. Thanks for the input.

For those that do not know Eollin Oswald, he's the author of a fitting manual, well worth the asking price.

 

[Mark8252]

870 Trap

870 will make a great shotgun for trap.
Any shotgun of reasonable quality will be fine.
Mostly its the shooter not the equipment.

 

[lakeman800]

870

the 870 is a great all around gun. i happen to have four of them-two have very long barrels and i use them for trap shooting... i also have two 870's that i would like to sell, a 410 express and a nib 50th aniv model--does anyone now where i can list them for sale--thanks

 

[johnmcl]

Rollin: Thanks for the insight on the stocks. This is an old field of knowledge, but new to me. Allow me to ask some a simple question. When you notice a measurement being sub optimal, is it a sand and grind operation to fix? What's done when you need to build up a spec, rather than reduce?

Dave, thanks for your patience, dude... Flying back on Friday.

Lakeman, I think the THR home page, near the bottom, has what you need.

 

[Dave McCracken]

No prob, John, a safe and pleasant journey, I hope. See ya...