870 with Loaded Chamber

[kurtmax]

Is it safe to leave an 870 ready to fire with a shell in the chamber? I can't find any information as to if it is drop-safe and other such things.

Most people seem to leave the chamber empty so they can 'scare people with the pump'. I think 'scaring people with the pump' is pretty stupid, but I keep the chamber empty as I don't know how safe it is otherwise.

I'd really like to keep one in the chamber if it's safe. Anybody have advice?

 

[ruger_martin_mastermag]

I would think that you should. If you have kids around I wouldnt though. As long as you dont have any thing that would get into it. I know someone that had an 870 that always kept it loaded until he had kids.I think it is safe.

 

[NeoSpud]

I think 'scaring people with the pump' is pretty stupid

I totally agree

I keep the chamber empty as I don't know how safe it is otherwise.

When I was younger (and I mean REALLY young) I dropped a loaded 870 on asphalt with no problem (except my father going ballistic). Safety wise I've never had a problem, though.

 

[kurtmax]

I'd send an email to Remington but I'm sure I would get the 'Don't ever shoot the shotgun and make sure you disassemble it into 30 pieces and keep each piece locked individually inside safes that are inside a big safe' answer...

I carry it in my truck sometimes, but I'm guessing I should keep the chamber empty in case of a collision or something. I don't need a shotgun going off to add to the mix... But just leaning against the wall or something, or being dropped from normal holding height it shouldn't go off?

And about scaring people: I always figure if the purpose of me loading a shell is to scare somebody, I probably shouldn't have the shotgun out in the first place....

 

[Robert Hairless]

I prefer to scare the people who want to hurt me by not being where they can hurt me. That trick has worked for many years. I assume that they are scared by the disappearing victim trick but I can't say for sure because I'm not there to see.

If I were the hurter instead of the hurtee, though, I betcha I would respond to that sound with the following thoughts:

1. Aha. I know where he is.
2. Idiot had the shotgun unloaded.
3. Damned fool now has one less round.
4. Could he have seen the same old cowboy movies I saw, and should we compare notes?
5. Might he be interested in buying a "What Would John Wayne Do?" bumper sticker?
6. I probably should do something to prevent him from putting pellets in my nice new suit.

In every shotgun course I ever took on a hot range the students were encouraged to keep the gun, including 870s, loaded. Might mean something, might not. If you're there with me I won't much care what you have in the gun if you don't point it at me and do keep your finger off the trigger when it's not on target.

 

[sm]

Robert Hairless,

Excellent Post!

 

[Fast Frank]

There are some guns that I consider safe to have in a ready to fire condition.

These guns are designed for this, and feature redundant safety systems.

When I see a safety that blocks the trigger parts, AND some sort of hammer block or firing pin lock, then I have a reason to believe that the weapon could have a failure of the safety system and still protect me.

Combat pistols are made this way.

Most shotguns are not. In fact, I'm not aware of any that offer serious redundant safety systems.

For this reason, I won't leave a shotgun "Cocked and locked".

My combat shotgun has a full magazine and an empty chamber.

There's no lock to worry about on mine (11-87P), so all I have to do is cycle the action and it's ready to fire.

In any situation where I feel I need to be armed with a shotgun, I pick it up and charge the weapon. Takes considerably less than a second.

Yes, it makes the "Racking" sound.

Yes, I have PERSONALLY seen petty thieves run away from that.

No, I don't do it for that reason.

I do it because I believe it's safe and I couldn't live with myself if a shotgun that I loaded harmed my loved ones.

I know that it can't happen when it's got an empty chamber so that's how it gets stored.

You guys that are going to be attacked by teams of professional hit men might need to stay in a "Combat Ready" mode, but I'm not rich, I don't have any political power, I haven't double crossed any drug lords, nobody hates me, and I really don't expect any zombies here in my neighborhood.

I think I'll be alright.

 

[rugerfreak]

Too much to go wrong with a loaded shotgun. Esp with kids around but I still wouldn't chance it if they aren't around either.

Save your pumping the action till you're ready to shoot----then the sound won't matter.

If you're worried about not having enough shots---carry spares in a side saddle or butt cuff.

 

[possum]

i leave mine loaded with one in the chamber this is the primary means of defense for my wife when i am gone.

the whole pumpping sould scaring people is bs and goes along with the whole intimidation thing, i hate it when people say stuff like that. the only time an intruder should hear the action being worked is when you are putting another rd in the chamber to fire again.

 

[GRIZ22]

I have seen exactly one 870 discharge when it was dropped hard on the butt. This was a well used but not defective weapon.

This doesn't make me believe you're safer with an empty chamber. As others have said that "sound of racking the slide" is so overused and tactically lets the BG know where you are...if he doesn't know that already...and you lose the surprise factor.

Chamber empty or loaded? Do what makes you feel comfortable.

 

[Robert Hairless]

Thanks Steve.

No argument from me about your approach, Fast Frank. I believe that everyone should live within his comfort zone, so all I can do is comment about mine and my own reactions.

I too could not live with myself if a shotgun I loaded harmed one of my loved ones either, so I took a different approach. Instead of attempting to protect my shotguns against stupidity or carelessness from my loved ones, I've taught all of my loved ones how to live with and use the shotguns and all other firearms in my home.

It's a transferrable skill set. During the educational process my kids started to learn early how to exist in a complex world with many other potentially dangerous factors. For example, not one of them needed for me to drain the gas tank of my car when I wasn't watching it: they caught on that it was not a good idea to throw lighted matches into the gas tank. I was especially pleased that none of them ever chose to throw a punch at a police officer just to see what would happen. And it was good that I didn't have to lock them away from tall buildings--or tall buildings away from them--to prevent them from jumping or falling off. Because I couldn't have lived with myself if any of my loved ones went around blowing themselves up, hitting cops or getting clobbered by them for doing so, or making doomed experiments in unassisted manned flight, I spent a lot of time with them helping them to learn.

But I respect parents who disagree with that approach to parenting, and I sometimes envy their more enlightened approach. Mine took hard work. I never conceived of being able to childproof the world, so my parenting was directed at worldproofing the child.

All of my loved ones are adults now. None have suffered from my approach, nor has anyone else. But, for perspective, I am an old guy and spent most of my many years in the dark ages before anyone knew anything at all about proper parenting. I don't know how any of us managed to survive those ignorant times, or how our own parents, grandparents, and great grandparents did either. How fortunate are those children of all ages who live in this time of the great awakening.

We, and all the generations who preceded us, were indeed unenlightened, ignorant, careless, irresponsible louts who did not love our children even a little. Many of us have learned to live with the shame. Some of us even go to the movies or out for dinner from time to time and are entertained by the cute antics of the properly raised little kids who throw things, shout, and run around the place while their parents watch the pictures or dine in self satisfied comfort. It's probably not good to repress the development of children by saying "No, don't do that" and explaining why, but I'm just not smart enough to know such things.

 

[sm]

Robert,

It is that thanks you sir!
Robert, again, an excellent post by you.

Safety is between the ears, not on the tool. - Mentor

Robert wrote: We, and all the generations who preceded us, were indeed unenlightened, ignorant, careless, irresponsible louts who did not love our children even a little. Many of us have learned to live with the shame.

We did not have Gov't Meddlin'.
We did have Parenting and Mentoring, which includes common sense and being responsible. These two skill sets , along with others, were passed onto and instilled in kids, starting at a very young age.

The Old Man And The Boy - By Robert Ruark was a favorite work of mine, growing up, and still is.

Now I contend this book about a Grandpa and Ruark as a kid, fishing, hunting, and everything else Ruark shares about his time with this Grandpa, should be owned and read to / by every kid, boy or girl.
Life Lessons, are intertwined, with Ethics, Morals , Values, Responsibility, Common Sense and so much more.
These Lessons apply to any kind of firearm , firearm owned, and firearm use.

JFK was assassinated. LBJ became President, and Gov't got to Meddlin' and has not slowed down since.
We used to order guns and have the Postman deliver to the house, business and pay C.O.D.

Kids, they grew up knowing about guns, Safety and everything.
Little kids, parents and adults, had a gun out of a child's reach. The ones I grew up and around, always loaded, as what good is an unloaded gun?

I knew if a home had small children, that gun was over the Mantle, over the back door, or in that closet, in a special rack, and the door locked, with key above the door out of reach of a small kid.

I knew there were loaded guns behind the kitchen door, front door, bedroom door.

So did all the other kids. WE knew to ask permission, and we knew when and did ask for a gun to be moved so we could sweep, mop behind the door.

Escaped Inmates or whatever reason a BG might come around and we had practiced drills on what us kids were to do, where to take safe concealment or cover.
WE knew the difference in concealment and cover.
NO 911, and we did not have our own phone line at first, we had a Party Line.
WE knew how to call Sheriff, Police, or State Boys Direct.

Guns in school , shooting lessons in school.

We did not want or need Gov't telling folks how to raise kids. Parents wanted to be left the hell alone and raise kids 'Right' and not "indoctrinated" by the government.

As one became bigger they took responsibility as they were mature enough to do so in Parenting / Mentoring younger sibs and other neighborhood kids.

The Circle was not broken. Instead a continuous Passing forward as passed to you.


LBJ took the oath on Air Force One in Nov of '63. I watched this on a Black and White TV.
Government has continued to do a piss poor job of raising kids and keeping them safe.
Parents need to take their kids back, and raise them, and adults get back to Mentoring as they once were.

Jurisdictions, Stats, Regs, Laws, and what one can and cannot do, has not deterred crime, or kept kids safe in the home or schools.

WE had loaded guns at home, took guns and had guns in school, and did not have the problems we do today.

 

[Robert Hairless]

I enjoyed The Old Man and the Boy too, Steve, although I haven't read it in decades and had forgotten about it until you just mentioned it. I'm going to look for a copy and reread it. Thanks for mentioning it. I think I remember reading parts of it in ... Field and Stream?

It didn't take a village to raise a child when I was being raised or even when I was raising kids myself. It did take parents who cared about turning their kids into adults, though. My own unenlightened parents told me at some early age (now I don't remember when) that they would not be around to take care of me forever so I needed to learn how to take care of myself, all they could do is help me learn, and there was no alternative to my learning.

It's outrageous: they did not give me any other option. Because I didn't know any better I told my own kids the same thing and helped them learn to survive. They do. I do too. Works out okay for us all. My children, now and for some time adults) are well aware that they come from a long line of stupid, unenlightened people. It is genetic I am sure.

I am exceedingly proud of my offspring, by the way, and of both their accomplishments in life and of their capacity for enjoyment. I don't have the slightest idea of whether they are well adjusted or of their self esteem and those were not among my concerns.

They are competent people, they are trustworthy and never lie to me even when maybe I would be happier if they did, they take care of themselves and of those who depend upon them, don't walk scared, don't whine, have never been photographed with bananas in their ears or lampshades on their heads while wandering aimlessly through the streets muttering about real or imagined injustices or about anyone spying on them through their teeth fillings, have no need to care for me or provide for my financial support, and I'm not apprehensive when they walk behind me while I'm looking elsewhere. Those were my concerns.

All guns, by the way, are always loaded except the one you need to fire at that moment to save your life. That one must be checked immediately to make sure it is still loaded and ready to fire or else, sure as the sun will rise, some damned fool--maybe you yourself--will have unloaded it without your knowledge and you will hear the loudest sound in the world when you pull the trigger: a click instead of a "boom!" It's a paradox. I taught it to my kids too.

Interesting to see you talk about mentoring. We didn't know what it was called back then in the dark ages, at least I didn't and I don't recall my folks using the word, but most of the adults I knew helped kids learn stuff and how to do things. They enjoyed it and we did too. It was what passed for entertainment in those days.

 

[Calhoun321]

From everything I have read, shotguns such as the 870 are NOT drop safe. The safety engages the trigger to prevent the trigger from firing the gun. It does not engage the sear. So, the sear could be jarred lose to fire the gun if dropped, even if the safety keeps the trigger from moving.

 

[ronto]

Unless I see a statement in writing from the maker of the firearm that is entirely drop-safe under any conditions, no round is kept in the chamber of any of my firearms until I'm ready to fire. Even if others have had no problems when dropping a particular model firearm, I am a firm believer in "Murphy's Law" that anything that can go wrong will go wrong sooner or later. This law especially holds true when I'm involved.

 

[evbutler462]

+1 for "The Old Man and the Boy." There is now a book combining the sequel with the original. It is "The Old Man's Boy Grows Older". Both in one cover.

Robert Ruark's grandfather, Ned Adkins lived near where I was reared. Ruark lived with his parents in Wilmington NC but spent a lot of time with his grandfather in Southport NC due to the fact Mr. Adkins could control him. He was rather mischevious and Mr. Adkins understood his love for shooting, hunting, and fishing and tamed the young Bobby by funnelling the excess energy into outdoor activities.

Ruark's books are some of the best reading for people that love the outdoors. Not a dull moment in either of the books. Ruark wrote a lot of books. Another favorite is "Use Enough Gun". On his African safaris, he emphasized that the small caliber guns most folks used just couldn't cut it in the safari country. His experiences are documented in this book.

 

[Fred Fuller]

The safety on 870s is of the cross-bolt design, which blocks the trigger from functioning. It does NOT lock the hammer, block the hammer, or restrict the movement of the firing pin. For those reasons I'd say the 870 is not technically drop safe. It is no less safe than many other designs whose safety follows the same trigger-blocking function (like the M-16/M-4), of course. But in the technical sense of the term it cannot be considered 100% drop safe. Anything that jolts the hammer out of engagement with the sear, or shears the sear engagement surfaces, can cause the firearm to discharge.

The question of 'drop safety' in my mind has little to do with the inherent safety of keeping a round chambered in the 870. Is it safe to do so? The only answer that I can come up with is, it's pretty much as safe as YOU are.

If you are always switched on 100% of the time, if you are never careless, if you never miss anything, if you never sleep and dream and perhaps react to those dreams, if there are never strangers or children or pets in your house, if nothing else of the myriad of Murphy things that could cause problems with a chambered round in your shotgun arises- sure, keep a round in the chamber.

You certainly have almost nothing to fear from a mechanical standpoint. I knew of one shotgun that went off all by itself while hanging in a gunrack on the wall. That was a 12-gauge boxlock SXS that had a sear fail after literally decades of sitting around cocked and under pressure. It happened to be loaded when that sear failed. I had a sear fail on my own 311 once- it broke in half on the pin that held it in the receiver and released its hammer- but that gun was unloaded at the time and all I had was a broken part to replace, not a hole in the house. Mechanical problems CAN happen. But the odds are almost infinitesimally small of that happening.

Much greater are the odds that you or someone/something else will manage to release the safety and trip the trigger. It might be ignorance, carelessness, a moment of unthinking or even unconscious action- but Murphy is always waiting in the wings. It is what is often referred to as the 'human factor' that is most likely to cause accidents.

I prefer not to keep a round chambered in the 'standby' shotguns at home here. If I pick one up to go hunt trouble, the first thing I do is chamber a round. But sitting in 'fire extinguisher' mode, the chambers are empty on the shotguns here. What should be kept in mind is that my wife and I both carry handguns at home, and those handguns are always ready to fire with a pull of the trigger (all are double action only, in her case a semiauto and in mine a revolver). Shotguns are 'go-to' guns- with sufficient warning there will be a shotgun in hand with the chamber loaded as soon as it is picked up, but shotguns here are secondary emergency firearms, to be gone to if there is time to reach them.

I don't keep a round chambered for a couple of reasons. Number one, I don't want a gun that is not literally in hand or on my person kept in Condition One (round chambered, hammer cocked, safety on). That's just a GP (general principle) decision on my part. None of the 'secondary' guns here are kept that way- only the 'primary' handguns that are carried on our persons or kept close by at night.

Number two, my trained and practiced ammunition management routine for the shotgun calls for it to be easily made ready with whichever type ammunition the situation calls for. That means the gun is in standby with a magazine loaded one round short with 00 buckshot, and a Sidesaddle loaded with slugs only. The chamber is empty, the hammer is cocked and the safety is on. If a slug is called for it's easy enough to run one into the empty slot in the magazine and stroke it into the chamber, following it with another into the magazine if slugs seem to be the order of the day- followed by the 'shoot one/load one' drill as needed to keep slugs going downrange. Otherwise the magazine full of buckshot (minus one) is right there at hand and ready to go instantly as the situation requires.

I do not count on the racking sound of a shotgun to terrify intruders. Such cheap theatrics rank right up there with yelling silly Hollywood script lines at intruders in my book. It isn't something serious practitioners waste time with.

I am not about to try and tell anyone else how to run their own home security, to include firearms. If you're old enough to buy a firearm, you're old enough to take responsibility for learning how to deploy it safely, for practicing with it until you can run it instinctively and for being 100% safe with it 100% of the time. If you cannot or will not do those things, your firearm is more a detriment to your safety and your family's safety than it is a protector.

The difference is NOT in the firearm. The difference is in the OPERATOR.

Stay Safe,

lpl/nc

 

[rcmodel]

Leaving ANY gun loaded in your home (unless it is contained in a steel safe) is very dangerous.
But not for all the reasons already mentioned.

Consider what happens if your house catches on fire, and a fireman trying to put it out happens to be standing on the roof when that round in the chamber cooks off!
(Rounds in the mag tube popping off will not hurt anyone in bunker gear.)

Leave the dang chamber empty!
It only takes a split second to load a pump gun.
And you can't kill a fireman with an unloaded gun!


rcmodel

 

[sm]

Robert wrote:
All guns, by the way, are always loaded except the one you need to fire at that moment to save your life. That one must be checked immediately to make sure it is still loaded and ready to fire or else, sure as the sun will rise, some damned fool--maybe you yourself--will have unloaded it without your knowledge and you will hear the loudest sound in the world when you pull the trigger: a click instead of a "boom!" It's a paradox. I taught it to my kids too.

Yes Sir!

Mentors & Elders , passed forward to me and others.
How raised what you do.

Not just Four Rules of Safety, Safety-Period. Safety was between one's ears, not on the tool.

Drop Safety?? I honestly do not not recall that term ever being used.
Just made sense to apply the rules of safety and common sense.

Young'un, now think before you go over a retrieve my gun off the wall there, so you don't drop it. Now how are going to get "aholt" of it, and where is that muzzle going be? -Mentor

First off, NEVER rely on any safety device. Anything can and will fail and Mr. Murphy has a tendency to do so at the wrong time.

Mentors had passed onto me how to get that gun, how to approach it, how best to get "aholt" of it and how to break it open, or whatever to BE Safe, and , If for whatever reason ...

Gall durned Communist comes crashing in , knocks you down, where is that muzzle.
You don't wanna shoot me, yourself , the dawg, and the goldfish ain't gonna appreciate getting shot!

We had a Cold War going on and Ruskies a bit of a concern back in the day you understand.

Serious Shotgun Shooting Games back in the day, some of my Mentors & Elders participated in.
Safeties were removed on purpose!
Shotguns, and Rifles!

Legal and just like Release Triggers, Common Courtesy, Respect, Common Sense, to tell Everybody you were shooting with, the Judges [RO/SO] and nobody every had a go off, and nobody got shot.

Same Shotgun, might be used for Home and Property Duty, even quail, doves, whatever.

My first ND that I saw the result of, was when I was wittle.
Mentors made sure I went down to the Police Station to see what happens and how it happened.

Police used Model 12, and Ithaca 37s, and had this rack the Shotgun sat upright in.
Black and White squad car, with a single red light [Cherry on top]

Officer had been on a Prowler call. Now the Police Dept said to load the magazine, and leave chamber empty, safety on.
Cruiser Ready.

So Officer had exited Squad Car, chambered a round, like Dept said and went looking...
Gets back in Squad Car, inserts this Shotgun into rack and going down the road.
With all the excitement, courldn't remember if he took that round out of the chamber or not, or if the safety on.
So he reaches over, and hits the trigger ...Booom!

00 buckshot, blew a hole in the top of that Squad Car!

Forget being a Policeman, forget gun safety, Common Sense "should have" dictated, pulling over somewhere safe, and physically and visually double checking all this.

That squad car was viewed by everyone. Cops from other Depts, Sheriff, State, FBI, Treasury, US Marshall's, Citizens...Folks come to see, and it was brought out to show.

I'm just a brat, looking up through the hole, and assisted onto top of squad car, looking down through this hole.
He bwoke the Cherry on Top too, he wouldn't work.
I did get to see the Cherry on Top atop another Police car while on its roof, pretty neat to see one up close and see it flash...


Mentors had a tendency to shake heads, chuckle, grin pretend they did not know me...


Ruark,
Yeah, I have read all his works; Use Enough Gun included

Paraphrasing : Look at you on that fence, all whomper-jawed and gun waving around...


Ruark caught on a fence and Grandpa Mentoring, fussing, still mentoring how that was NOT the best way to deal with a fence and shotgun.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Back in the day, one of our lesser geniuses dropped an 870 from a perimeter tower, maybe 30 feet down on concrete. I had to examine the weapon afterwards to determine what damage had occured.

Kept chamber empty, action locked closed, safety on, the weapon did not actuate the sear. I believe it dropped on the butt and a large chip came off that.

FWIW...

 

[STiTkacik]

I wouldn't leave a loaded gun around. Kids or no kids.

 

[Jeff F]

A shotgun is a devastating weapon. I keep mine I think they call it cruiser safe, bolt closed, hammer down, empty chamber, safety on. It only takes a second to load a round when you pick it up. I want no part of any kind of ND with a shotgun.

 

[Robert Hairless]

Because of this discussion I mentioned Robert Ruark to my wife at breakfast this morning. It turns out that she had read him too when she was younger. Her father had one or more of his books. So now we're both motivated to reread him. Thanks guys.

For what it's worth, I think that anyone who wouldn't have a loaded gun around most definitely should not have a loaded gun around. Know your comfort zone and stay within it. I'm not sure there's much value in asserting that people who don't do as you do are unsafe, immoral, or careless though, and I don't feel comfortable with the least common denominator as the equivalent of virtue.

In my opinion the absolute best way to prevent a negligent discharge in one's home is to separate the gun from its ammunition and get both of them out of the house and as far away from it as possible. All other ways seem to be compromises that require good equipment, good training, and clear thinking. Those are what I see as requirements for reasonably good parenting too. I've only been doing both for somewhat more than forty years, though, so I'm nothing like an expert on either, and I don't think myself qualified yet to set the rules for other people.

Right now I can talk about what I do but not about what anyone else ought to do.

 

[sm]

Robert,
You and the wife enjoy reading Ruark.


One has to be brutally honest with themselves, with their situations about firearms - period.

From owning one, decisions in CCW, and if one obtains a license/permit, actually CCW-ing, Keeping one at home, skill sets, mindset, religious, moral and legal considerations.

Local laws, stats, regs and political flavor may affect one's decisions.

Just me, but it is nobody's business, especially Gov't, Hollywood Folks , Anti-Gun folks telling me what I have to do.

Nope, sorry, that dawg won't hunt.

Get brutally honest, make a decision and take responsibility for your decisions.


I am not going to be at your gunfight - Awerbuck

 

[pete f]

I keep mine cruiser ready, as that seems to be the least likely way for a aw **** to happen.