9 mm load workup using IMR Target

[BB in Texas]

Would appreciate a reality check on my workup for these 9 mm test loads:

Data:

Hodgdon 9mm 115g LRN IMR Target COL 1.100 Start 4.0 Max 4.5
Lee 9 mm 115g XTP IMR Target COL 1.125 Start 4.4 Max 4.9

My working COL is 1.125 and want to work up loads using two different bullets (both of which I've used with other powders and same COL):

9 mm 115g Xtreme CP RN (COL of bullet is .551)
9 mm 115g RMR FMJ RN (COL of bullet is .561)

According to Hornady, the COL of the 115g XTP is .538.

Since the COL used in the Lee data (1.125) is identical to my working COL, the bullets I use will be seated deeper into the case than would be so with the shorter XTP bullet. With less available space within the case for my test loads (other factors being equal) my test loads should produce more pressure than the XTP bullet with the same charge weight.

I’ve read multiple posts from very experienced members suggesting using lead data for the copper plated bullets while others have suggested reducing the lead data by 10% as the starting load. By either measure that would put the start at 4.0 for the Xtreme CP RN. Seems reasonable to me based on my understanding and experience.

Analyzing the RMR FMJ RN relationship is confusing to me and I’m not sure how (or even whether) to proceed.

What I do know is that I’ve used W231 with identical charges and COL for each bullet (CPRN and FMJ RN) and I simply can’t observe any difference. Based on this experience I’m inclined to use a start charge of 4.0 with both bullets, but what’s the likelihood of a squib in this scenario? Maybe a start charge at 4.2?

As always, thanks in advance for the help!

 

[LiveLife]

Here's my load development with IMR Target - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-vectan-ba-9-5-ba-9.817796/#post-10508215

These are the load data I referenced - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

• 9mm 115 gr Lead RN IMR Target Dia .356" COL 1.100" Start 4.0 gr (1,095 fps) - Max 4.5 gr (1,197 fps)
• 9mm 115 gr Speer Gold Dot HP IMR Target Dia .355" COL 1.125" Start 4.4 gr (1,084 fps) - Max 4.9 gr (1,171 fps)
• 9mm 124 gr Berry's HBRN-TP IMR Target Dia .356" COL 1.150" Start 4.1 gr (1,017 fps) - Max 4.5 gr (1,109 fps)

Following test rounds were loaded for the range test (.378" taper crimp used. RMR Hardcore Match is thick plated bullet):

• RMR 115 gr FMJ 1.130" OAL: 4.0-4.1 gr, 4.2-4.3 gr, 4.5-4.6 gr
• RMR 115 gr HCM 1.130" OAL: 4.0-4.1 gr, 4.2-4.3 gr
• RMR 124 gr HCM 1.145" OAL: 4.0-4.1 gr, 4.2-4.3 gr

Chrono data from Glock 22/KKM conversion barrel:

RMR 115 gr FMJ:

• 4.0-4.1 gr: 1008-981-991-1023-1034 fps
• 4.2-4.3 gr: 1049-1053-1067-1055-1085 fps
• 4.5-4.6 gr: 1162-1166-1138-1110-1151 fps

RMR 115 gr Hardcore Match RN:

• 4.0-4.1 gr: 986-1002-1071-975-1002 fps
• 4.2-4.3 gr: 1024-1054-1030-1036-1030 fps

RMR 124 gr Hardcore Match RN:

• 4.0-4.1 gr: 959-991-984-986-931 fps
• 4.2-4.3 gr: 1049-1033-1018-1063-1046 fps

Comparison chrono/range tests done to show shorter 1.130" OAL load produced smaller groups than longer 1.155" - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ectan-ba-9-5-ba-9.817796/page-2#post-10511758

• IMR Target 4.2-4.3 gr RMR 115 gr FMJ 1.155" OAL: 1036-1068-974-1044-1015 fps - SD 35
• IMR Target 4.2-4.3 gr RMR 115 gr FMJ 1.130" OAL: 1072-1045-1078-1059-1077 fps - SD 14

These are 25 yard 10 shot groups with 17" Just Right carbine:

IMR Target 4.2-4.3 gr RMR 115 gr FMJ 1.155" (Left) and 1.130" (Right)


RMR 115 gr FMJ at 1.130" with IMR Target 4.5-4.6 gr (Left), 4.2-4.3 gr (Center) and 4.0-4.1 gr (Right)


RMR 115 gr Hardcore Match RN at 1.130" with IMR Target 4.0-4.1 gr (Left) and 4.2-4.3 gr (Right)


RMR 124 gr Hardcore Match RN at 1.145" with IMR Target 4.0-4.1 gr (Left) and 4.2-4.3 gr (Right)

 

[lordpaxman]

Extreme has a reloading manual:

X-Treme Bullets Reloading Manual

www.xtremebullets.com

I doubt they have the discontinued IMR Target listed. I worked up loads for Target but for heavier bullets.
I use start to mid level jacketed data for plated bullets. In all the loads I developed for plated bullets the one squib I had was from using lead data to start. That’s my experience.
Regarding your RMR RN data, you’re correct that a deeper seating depth, 023” in your case, will result in a difference in pressure, how much and which way is TBD. The bullets have different construction and bearing surface so without pressure equipment the only way I have to evaluate it is via a chrono. If I was in your position, I’d drop the XTP start data by .1 grain, and load up 5. I would bet they’d hardly cycle the action. I’ve found Hodgdon start charges to be conservative, which is a good safety measure. And, your gun is different than their test setup.

 

[LiveLife]

IMR Target is small flake powder similar to Alliant Bullseye and IMO Hodgdon/IMR/Accurate/Ramshot intended Target to compete with Bullseye. Compare the load data as they are pretty close:

• 9mm 115 gr Speer TMJ RN Bullseye COL 1.135" Start 4.2 gr (1037 fps) - Max 4.7 gr (1144 fps) - https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/9mm_Luger__115_rev1.pdf
• 9mm 124 gr Speer TMJ RN Bullseye COL 1.135" Start 3.9 gr (966 fps) - Max 4.4 gr (1059 fps) - https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/9mm_Luger__124_rev1.pdf

Compared to Hodgdon load data - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

• 9mm 115 gr Lead RN Target COL 1.100" Start 4.0 gr (1,095 fps) - Max 4.5 gr (1,197 fps)
• 9mm 124 gr Berry's HBRN-TP Target COL 1.150" Start 4.1 gr (1,017 fps) - Max 4.5 gr (1,109 fps)

working COL is 1.125 ... 9 mm 115g Xtreme CP RN ... using lead data for the copper plated bullets ... start at 4.0 for the Xtreme CP RN. Seems reasonable

Yes. I have referenced lead load data for plated bullets with good results over the years. (In fact, I use 4.3 gr of Bullseye for 115 gr FMJ/plated RN at 1.130" with good results)

And for my initial powder work up, I tend to reference more conservative load data as I can always go higher.

115g RMR FMJ RN ...COL 1.125 ... relationship is confusing to me and I’m not sure how to proceed ... I’m inclined to use a start charge of 4.0 with both bullets, but what’s the likelihood of a squib in this scenario? Maybe a start charge at 4.2?

Unlike revolver loads that leak gas out of cylinder/forcing cone gap that can squib bullet with lower powder charges, as moderator @Walkalong demonstrated, any decent amount of powder in case shot in semi-auto barrel will likely push the bullet out the muzzle. And as demonstrated by my load development/powder work up, 4.0 gr of Target will not squib the bullet in 9mm semi-auto barrel.

Since Hodgdon lead load data for 115 gr RN bullet ranged from 4.0 gr to 4.5 gr using shorter 1.100" OAL, for powder work up with RMR 115 gr FMJ using longer 1.130" OAL, I decided to test from 4.0 gr start charge to 4.6 gr max charge. (NOTE: While Target is small flake powder, it didn't meter as well as Bullseye and I got drops in the range of 4.0-4.1 gr, 4.2-4.3 gr and 4.5-4.6 gr.

As you can see from my range test, 4.2-4.3 gr of Target produced smaller groups with both 115/124 gr bullets. And shorter 1.130" OAL produced smaller group than longer 1.145" using 115 gr FMJ bullet.

So perhaps for your powder work up using 115 gr RMR FMJ/X-Treme RN at 1.125" OAL, you could start at 4.0-4.1 gr and test 4.2-4.3 and 4.4-4.5 gr.

Extreme has a reloading manual:

Unfortunately X-Treme "Reloading Manual" has very limited powder listing and for 9mm, it's mostly BE-86/Titegroup/N320 without load data for IMR Target.

 

[BB in Texas]

IMR Target is small flake powder similar to Alliant Bullseye and IMO Hodgdon/IMR/Accurate/Ramshot intended Target to compete with Bullseye. Compare the load data as they are pretty close:

• 9mm 115 gr Speer TMJ RN Bullseye COL 1.135" Start 4.2 gr (1037 fps) - Max 4.7 gr (1144 fps) - https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/9mm_Luger__115_rev1.pdf
• 9mm 124 gr Speer TMJ RN Bullseye COL 1.135" Start 3.9 gr (966 fps) - Max 4.4 gr (1059 fps) - https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/9mm_Luger__124_rev1.pdf

Compared to Hodgdon load data - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

• 9mm 115 gr Lead RN Target COL 1.100" Start 4.0 gr (1,095 fps) - Max 4.5 gr (1,197 fps)
• 9mm 124 gr Berry's HBRN-TP Target COL 1.150" Start 4.1 gr (1,017 fps) - Max 4.5 gr (1,109 fps)

Yes. I have referenced lead load data for plated bullets with good results over the years. (In fact, I use 4.3 gr of Bullseye for 115 gr FMJ/plated RN at 1.130" with good results)

And for my initial powder work up, I tend to reference more conservative load data as I can always go higher.


Unlike revolver loads that leak gas out of cylinder/forcing cone gap that can squib bullet with lower powder charges, as moderator @Walkalong demonstrated, any decent amount of powder in case shot in semi-auto barrel will likely push the bullet out the muzzle. And as demonstrated by my load development/powder work up, 4.0 gr of Target will not squib the bullet in 9mm semi-auto barrel.

Since Hodgdon lead load data for 115 gr RN bullet ranged from 4.0 gr to 4.5 gr using shorter 1.100" OAL, for powder work up with RMR 115 gr FMJ using longer 1.130" OAL, I decided to test from 4.0 gr start charge to 4.6 gr max charge. (NOTE: While Target is small flake powder, it didn't meter as well as Bullseye and I got drops in the range of 4.0-4.1 gr, 4.2-4.3 gr and 4.5-4.6 gr.

As you can see from my range test, 4.2-4.3 gr of Target produced smaller groups with both 115/124 gr bullets. And shorter 1.130" OAL produced smaller group than longer 1.145" using 115 gr FMJ bullet.

So perhaps for your powder work up using 115 gr RMR FMJ/X-Treme RN at 1.125" OAL, you could start at 4.0-4.1 gr and test 4.2-4.3 and 4.4-4.5 gr.


Unfortunately X-Treme "Reloading Manual" has very limited powder listing and for 9mm, it's mostly BE-86/Titegroup/N320 without load data for IMR Target.

Can't tell you how much I value and appreciate your comprehensive response, LiveLife. Many good takeaways for me--too many to bore you with a complete diatribe!

I note that the website load data seems more comprehensive and up to date than the printed data (Hodgdon's did not show the Speer Gold Dot Load) so I'm now schooled to be more methodical in my research!

The test data you provided/referenced is both revealing and REASSURING. Was quite surprised that you worked up both the plated and jacketed 115g from the starting loads for the lead data. I wasn't able to find the HCM bullets on RMR, but as you noted its a thick plated and I'm wondering if it would behave somewhere between the Xtreme plated and FMJ.

Trust I will take your advice regarding using conservative start data and specifically using IMR Target start loads of 4.0 incrementally up to 4.5 for both RMR FMJ/Xtreme RN. Hopefully in time for a range visit tomorrow.

 

[BB in Texas]

Extreme has a reloading manual:

X-Treme Bullets Reloading Manual

www.xtremebullets.com

I doubt they have the discontinued IMR Target listed. I worked up loads for Target but for heavier bullets.
I use start to mid level jacketed data for plated bullets. In all the loads I developed for plated bullets the one squib I had was from using lead data to start. That’s my experience.

Thanks. Appreciate your insight.

Regarding your RMR RN data, you’re correct that a deeper seating depth, 023” in your case, will result in a difference in pressure, how much and which way is TBD. The bullets have different construction and bearing surface so without pressure equipment the only way I have to evaluate it is via a chrono.

If only I were sophisticated enough to chrono! Maybe one day........

 

[BB in Texas]

UPDATE:

I loaded 25 rounds using each bullet type (RMR FMJ/Xtreme CPRN)

IMR TARGET
WIN cases (once fired)
CCH500 primers
COL 1.125

[email protected] g
[email protected] g
[email protected] g
[email protected] g
[email protected] g
[email protected] g

I weighed each charge using an inexpensive digital scale a balance beam scale. (Was a bit difficult to get consistent powder drops with this powder.)

Fired all 50 rounds in 9mm Springfield XDm 4.5” barrel

All rounds fired and extracted well. Was surprised actually how well the 4.0-4.1g charges fired. The 4.4-4.5g charges were not too hot.

All rounds were fired from standing position and I don’t brag or claim to be a great marksman! I just enjoy target shooting and reloading.

The 4.3-4.3g charges produced better groups and just felt best to me.

I recovered 49/50 cases and did not find any signs of excessive pressure or other irregularities.

 

[LiveLife]

Nice!

 

[Riomouse911]

I really like IMR Target for .38 and .44 Specisl kids. Sadly, I am down to my last two pounds of it

Stay safe.

 

[LiveLife]

I really like IMR Target for .38 and .44 Specisl kids. Sadly, I am down to my last two pounds of it

Me too. It definitely held promise for accurate loads.

But unfortunately, along with IMR Red/Green/Unequal, etc. they have been discontinued - https://www.powdervalley.com/product/imr-target/

 

[Riomouse911]

Dang, autocorrect said “kids”.

Should be loads.

Stay safe.

 

[BB in Texas]

I really like IMR Target for .38 and .44 Specisl kids. Sadly, I am down to my last two pounds of it

Stay safe.

Hey glad to hear it! Love shooting .38 Special and will be my next project. Fortunate to have an 8 pound jug to work with. Thx.