9 X 23 Question?

[grendelbane]

Ever consider 40 S&W in 10mm magazines?
The brass is stronger than 10mm.

I have loaded some 10mm length .40 S&Ws, but they were light loads. I have 2 .40 barrels, an old, ugly E-Bay barrel which looks terrible, but actually shoots pretty fair, and a nice new SS Nowlin barrel which I have not even fitted yet.

I have also tried shooting .40 S&W with moonclips in a 610. It is hard to get a good solid crimp to keep the bullet still. At regular .40 S&W lengths, the .40 brass shoots great. I have seen tools that will let you place your cannelure where you want, but I think I am probably too lazy to use one.

The .40 S&W brass has the added advantage of being able to use small rifle primers. Of course, the 9x23mm also shares this desireable trait.

Perhaps, someday, some one will produce 10mm brass which takes small pistol or rifle primers. It is possible, after all, you can now buy brand new .44 Russian brass. Brave New World, indeed!

 

[cxm]

CorBon

CorBon loads some excellent loads for the 9x23 in addition to the WInchester stuff.

FWIW

Chuck

 

[jjohnson]

The other 9x23 - the 9mm Largo

Um, don't forget, boys, the Largo is a 9x23 that's been around since Christ was a corporal. This isn't even the same story as the .44Mag morphing from the .44 Special or .357 coming from the .38 Special - the Largo dimensions are so close that when I contacted Starline to ask if THEY thought it was close enough to the 9x23 Winchester that I could use it for reloading Largo they told me yes.
I independently came to that conclusion by looking at myammo.com and actually loading ammo for my Star B 9mm Largo out of 9x23 brass. Ahaaa! Yep, it works.

The Largo in those well priced Star pistols (under $150) isn't up to snuff quite in the 9x23 Winchester pressure range (don't even try it) but it sure pushes bullets up to 147grains with real authority. 4mm more of brass than the 9mm Luger means more powder space and lower pressures. If one of you guys think you can't afford the semi-custom 9x23 Winchester Colt copies, ponder on shucking out the cash for a fling on a Spanish warhorse. The Star's not bad at all, handles very much like the M1911s we all love, and if for some reason you don't want to play with your Colt today, it's a hoot. I reload with caution, and stick with pressures my Largo was designed to handle, but with new springs, careful inspection of pistol, new Starline brass, and a ballistics program (I use Quickload) I can come up with stuff that makes steel plates fall down with regularity. That 9x23 Winchester is certainly more potent, but I don't feel undergunned much with what I have

 

[jjohnson]

Question for Clark on Tokarev Conversion to 9x23

Hey, Clark...

Could you share with me who you got to convert a Tok to 9x23? I have an extra 9mm Luger barrel for mine, and since I play a lot with 9x23 Largo I'd REALLY like to get it converted. I promise not to blow it up. I don't push my Star B too hard and I think even though the barrel of a CZ52 has that little cutout underneath, if I treat it like the Star, I should be well within sane safety limits.

So.... can you share some contact info with me please? Thanks in advance!

 

[BillL223]

More 9 x 23 Info

My wife and I have been shooting CP/Winchester 9 x 23 for over ten years. Her gun was built as a Steel gun and mine was built as an IPSC Open gun. Both built by EGW. At the time we went this direction, the 9 x 23 was considered a better feeder in double stack mags as they were rimless. The 38 Super, which ruled IPSC at that time, has a small rim that could cause difficulties. The case is much stronger then a 38 Super and could be reloaded many more times. CAUTION: The Largo does not have near this case strength and should be never be loaded to Win 9 x 23 specs. After many loadings I have experienced some case cracking which is easy to see and sort out. The other probelm has been expansion of the primer pocket. This is the most likely reason to trash the case but it only happens after loading at IPSC pressure repeatedly. When used for low pressure steel loads, I think case life is extremely long. Last I bought new brass, I paid about $150/1000 for Winchester. I have used lower priced Starline "9mmSupercomp" with good results and at a lower price. I have discovered, after failing to make Major Power at an IPSC match, that Starlines have greater case capacity then Winchester 9 x 23. This is because they are not as thick in the lower part of the case and, in my opinion, are not as strong. This is a very versatile load I have loaded 95 gr steel loads up to 147 gr bowling pin loads. Current IPSC load is 121 gr Zero over VV 3N37, Steel Load is 95 gr Zero (380 bullet) over Titegroup.

 

[jjohnson]

Largo vs 9x23 Win SAFETY

Yeah,like he said. You can use 9x23 brass to load largo. It'll work. Great! Stronger brass, ja? True. BUT IT ALSO HAS LESS POWDER CAPACITY, WHICH MEANS HIGHER PRESSURES SO BE CAREFUL!!! It doesn't mean now you can stuff 9x23 loads into the largo. Bad, Bad idea. The old Largo guns are NOT made to handle that stuff. Don't even try. Largo is the only 9x23 weapon of any kind I have, so I know I'm not mixing loads betwee a 9x23 comp and a largo - that would be asking for a disaster.

 

[Clark]

I agree that Starline 9mm Supercomp has more volume but less strength.
For LONGSHOT that is good, for Power Pistol, that is not.

Could you share with me who you got to convert a Tok to 9x23?

1) Put a 9x23mm reamer in a lathe tailstock chuck and the barrel in the lathe headstock chuck and remove material with Sulfered cutting oil until a case will chamber with the pistols assembled.

2) Or, put a 9x23mm reamer in a drill chuck, and hold the drill chuck in the right hand and the barrel in the left hand, and give a twist of the wrist until as 9x23mm case will chamber.

3) Or, use a 115 piece drill set, a drill chuck, and two hands.
http://www.widell.com/drillsiz.html
As you can see, V drill will make a .3770" hole and a W drill will make a .3860" hole. The correct choice for lengthening the chamber is 25/64ths =.3906". This make the chamber .0060" sloppy, but that is fine.
The throat should be .357"
As you can see the T drill makes a .358" hole. that is .001" oversize
23/64 drill will make a .3594" hole, that is .0027" oversize.
U drill will make a .3680" hole, that is .011" oversize.
I find that I like the U drill better for getting the cartridge to fall in the chamber, but drill holes made with a twist of the wrist may be a few thousands small.
I seat a .358" LSWC bullet out to 1.36" and cut the throat until the cartridge falls in.

If you want 1.36" loads with 158 gr .357" and .358" bullets, then the 9x23mm reamer from Brownells is not going to do it all.

 

[jjohnson]

More Questions for Clark

Thanks! But, hey, any good answer usually breeds two questions, right?

Let's see... first, you were expounding about getting more boost out of a Tokarev, and I just wanted to verify - were you talking specifically CZ52, Tok 33, what? Just trying to keep my head screwed on straight.

Second, your comments about reamers - and accuracy/load/bore diameters - great. Looks like first thing I should do is slug the 9mm bore of the aftermarket barrel I bought for my CZ52. I was told by somebody else they have inherently soft recoil lugs and should be re-heat treated. Go figure - made in Korea was what another poster said. Of course, the object is to get all of the boost I can out of a 9x23 chamber in a CZ52 while staying withing safe limits, so if all this works, I'll be using stout loads... and beating the soft parts of the pistol sillly.

I haven't priced the reamers at brownell's but I'm reluctant to put more in a reamer I'll use once than what I paid for the barrel. I'll have to ponder that one Some of these 'oh what the hell' projects go past making sense. Well.... not that they HAVE to.

Thanks for your help. I'm gonna go find my Cerrosafe and mike that barrel.

 

[Jspy]

After reading some of the newer posts on this topic, I seem to remember in doing research that the 9x23 case was similar in design to a rifle cartridge, meaning it had a double wall in the ass end to handle the increased pressure. I don't reload, but that may be why the cases might last a little longer. Reading this thread again makes me want to dig out my Colt 9x23.

 

[Clark]

JJ,
T33
I have Russian, Polish, China military, and China export T33 Tokarevs.
They are all good except the China 213 9mm only.

Yes, some China 9mm barrels are as big as the SAAMI specs for 9mm; .359" grooves.


Don't even THINK about hot rodding a CZ52 up to 9x23mm.

Jspy,
The Win 9x23 is heavy like .223 brass
The Starline 9mm Supercomp is thin like 380 brass.
With case support, both will deliver more recoil than you want.

 

[jjohnson]

Thanks, Clark!

Thanks, I was beginning to believe that's exactly where you were headed with your comments being 'Tok' (which is what some people call the round, hence my confusion). I understand they're meatier where it counts than the CZ52, so I'm staying on the safe side of what you're loading. It caught my eye you're using 158 grains, which will for sure work if my barrel mikes on the fat side of the expected .355. That would be FINE by me. My goal here is to get all I can out of my spare CZ52 in the 9mm barrel, not blow it up. We're talking Largo here. And since it's a spare barrel anyway, if the chamber isn't exactly Czech Spec, but works, so what? I may go the drill press method you suggested unless I can locate somebody who'd rent me a reamer for a weekend. I appreciate your taking the time to post answers.

 

[UncleBob]

Great thread. I recently came across a brand new 9x23 barrel and never even heard of it. Now to figure out what to do with the barrel.

 

[Marshall]

Holy Thread Resurrection Moly!

Three years ago, damn! Kind of has me hyped up on 9X23 again.

 

[srtboise]

Great thread. I recently came across a brand new 9x23 barrel and never even heard of it. Now to figure out what to do with the barrel.

it is useless. you can send it to me and i will properly dispose of it for you...free of charge

steve

 

[dougader]

I love the 9x23. I bought SA 1911 that had some work done to it but could never get it to run reliably. The rounds always nose-dived into the magazine. I was told to get Wolff extra power magazine springs but the i needed cash and that was the first gun to go since it was worth so much more than my others. I really miss it.

The Winchester brass is very strong. I bought 1,000 rounds and then bought some factory Winchester ammo as well. I've loaded every thing from light practice loads, 125 grain RNL @ 1,000 fps and up: 115 jhp @ 1600 fps, 124 xtp @ 1523 fps and 147 xtp @ 1365 fps. The Hornady xtp's are my favorite bullet for accuracy and SD, but at top speeds they can come apart (which is only really a concern if you're hunting deer or something similar). The Speer Gold Dot holds together better than any othe bullet I've tried... and I'm not talking about their .357 Sig bullet... just the regular 9mm 124 grain slug.

I loaded with BlueDot but it's relatively bulky and I ran out of space in the case for real sizzling velocity. AA#7 burns very clean, meters well and comes up with great velocity and low extreme spread. The same goes for Viht 3N37. I have yet to try Power Pistol but think it has promise too.

I tried the HS6 with 9mm in the past and it wasn't very clean. But I have been assured by a friend in OK that it burns very clean at 9x23 pressures... much as was my experience with AA#7.

BTW, I always use small rifle primers. I happen to have a huge lot of CCI 400 primers so that's what I used.

Even with screaming loads, this round recoils very little in a 1911 format. I'd like to try it in the other guns listed here, i.e., CZ/Witness, Glock 20 and the Tok's mentioned by Clark.

I'd be happy to share my loading data with the understanding that you're on you're own as they were safe in my gun but I can't say they would be safe in yours...

 

[Clark]

The Win9x23Win brass in cross section looks more like rifle brass.
The Starline 9mm Super comp in cross section looks more like pistol brass.
The Starline brass holds more powder, the Win brass holds more pressure.


I am going to get a KKM 40sw barrel for my 10mm Glock 20 and see what that pistol can really do with a small primer pocket.


I am going to get a 6mmBR reamer and see what my Mauser actions can really do with a small primer pocket.


45Colt brass can go way past 454 loads, but that large primer pocket has allot of brass around it, unlike the anemic 10mm case.