9 X 23 Question?

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Marshall

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What is the deal with this cartridge? Why are so few pistols made to shoot this round, it's ballistics are teriffic from what I can see?

Is there no market for it? Is the cartridge too powerful for the pistols making the pistol too expensive to manufacture? Is it no fun to shoot?

Can you taylor pistols made in 9X19 to accept the 9X23?

What be the deal?


Thanks
Marshall :)
 
in the us, there is no need for the 9x23. it was only designed for countries where the 9x19 is banned because military rounds are prohibited for civilians over there. but maybe I'm confusing with the 9x21 :confused:
 
Thanks Perfect,

No, I am speaking of the 9X23 that Winchester introduced primarly for IPSC competition (I believe). I think it is mainly being used in custom pistols.
 
9x23 is arguably the "better mousetrap" self-defense cartridge, assuming you like the 1911 platform that is. It has actually been around for quite a while.

You get 10+1 rounds of true .357 Magnum ballistics (and unlike .357 Sig, that includes with heavier bullet weights), light recoil, nearly indestructible brass and a cartridge shape perfect for super-smooth feeding in a 1911.

How does 125gr @ 1,500+ ft/sec or a safe 147gr handload at 1,400 ft/sec sound?

Unfortunately it is sort of a niche cartridge, you can get good factory Winchester ammo for it but that's it.
 
What he said...a great and underappreciated cartridge. The local freak and geek group (including my wife and I) all shoot STI's in 9 by 23.

Had one of those "D'oh" moments and realized that it would make a great carry load...so I'm working up a new STI with a Commander-length slide in 9 by 23. Another neat feature...since 9 by 23 is basically a stretched chamber 9 by 19...is that a properly set up 9 by 23 can also shoot 9 by 19 (great for Steel matches in a IPSC Open gun), 9 by 21, .38 Supercomp...haven't tried 9 by 18 in it yet, but not for lack of curiousity.



Alex
 
the reason that this is the case are

manyfold. The main reason is the cost of 9x19 ammo being about 1/3rd of the cost of 9x23 ammo. Another is the lack of DA or Glocks in this caliber. The 9x23 is too long to fit in the mags of the many guns that are built around the 9x19 cartridge. The 357 sig will fit in those guns, you see. So will the .40 short and weak.
 
Wakal What do you mean by "properly set up" ? Since you are a 9x23 shooter I would assume you may have done some shooting with the 9x19, etc. I've heard of using the 38 Super in the 9x23 but have also heard that its not even recommended. My memory is a little fuzzy, but it seems like even Dane Burns doesn't advocate mixing em up. The 9mm Largo included. BTW, I have one of the factory Colt Govts. in 9x23 AND a 38 Super.
 
This is a great round !

I found this old thread and thought I might bring it back to life !

I realize that Dane Burns discourages firing of the 9X23 Winchester in a .38 Super, but there are those who have discovered that the Witness .38 Supers fire the ammo actually quite well. 18+1 rds. of this cartridge, which can be loaded to very powerful levels, is one of my favorite guns to fire. I don't actually load my 147 gr. XTPs to the velocity listed above, but I just happen to have loaded 30 rds for a test run last nite. It is such a robust case that if you use small rifle primers you can achieve great ballistics safely. I have flattened some small pistol primers but have never seen a sign of a case bulge. (I'm not going to ever push it that far). With the rifle primers, I'm sure I can get the performance I always strived for with .38 super.

The design of the extractor is the main concern (for me) since the extractor is designed for the semi-rimmed 38 Super case. I have experienced a few FTEs, but not often. Although the taper of the case is a little different than 38 super, it doesn't seem to be a problem with any other function of the gun. The large frame Witness can handle the abuse of the hot 10mm loads I fire so I know it can handle this cartridge very well. I doesn't hurt the that Witnesses are very affordable. This line of CZ clones has developed quite a following. They are available in more calibers than any pistol I know of. I have five. I'd like to have a 1911 that would fire this great caliber in my collection also. I'm sure it would be a pleasure to fire.

Link: http://p201.ezboard.com/fczechpistols82792frm35

Good Shootin'
-patman
 
9x23mm brings the full spectrum of .357 magnum capability to the auto pistol, unlike .357 SIG, which relpicates only a few low end loadings and has difficulty with heaveri/longer projectiles due to a short necked bottle necked design. You also get a higher capacity, at the expense of grip size.

The design is also ver freindly to relaoaders, both in the ease of doing so and the life of the brass. Furthermore, you can swage down .357 projectiles and make laods using them, something taht you really can't/shouldn't do with the .357 SIG.

It is inevitable that the 9x23mm get compared to the .357 SIG, but this does not really tell the whole thing, on its surface.

BTW, the 1911 (single stack or wide body), the EAA Witness, and the Glock 20 all make excellent platforms for the 9x23. Others are also good canidates, but the above are particualrly suited due to the ability to get replacement barrells, springs, and buffers.

The EAA Witness, in particualr, freaking rocks in that caliber. Also, there is enough meat/metal in the grip on one that it can be shaved down a bit for a smaller grip. Be careful here though, go slow.

Tsh77769
 
9X23 Winchester

The 9X23 doesn't have any advantages over 10mm that I can think of except that it has less recoil even in my hotter loads. It also allows me to successfully fire the loads in a pistol which is rally designed for a 38 super. (Altho I won't encourage it for anyone else but me) I don't want to cause anyone else to have any problems altho I (and many others) do this on a regular basis cith our EAA large frame 38 Supers.

The 10mm is hard to beat for performance in a semi auto pistol. I don't think the 9X23 can touch it in powerful reloads altho off the shelf ammo in 10mm is usually wimpy. Double Tap ammo offers some "full house" loads in 10mm I am told. The only 9X23 loads available as far as I know are from Winchester, but I bet they are wimpy too. You just have to load your own in either of these fine calibers.

I hope it never happens, but if I ever need in a weapon in some sort of situation, I would sure like to have my EAA Witness 10mm loaded with my reloads and several loaded 18 round mags.

My next choice might very well be my Witness 38 super loaded with 9X23 hot loads.

Good shootin, guys !

-Pat
 
My carry gun is a 9x23 LW Colt Commander. Its a great cartridge in a great platform. Cor-Bon and Winchester offer loads for it, though the White Box doesn't use stout primers, so they flake off and can clog the firing pin hole.

I shoot 38 Super in it all the time, no problem. And I had a 9mm barrel fitted to it so I can practice with WWB on the cheap.

Colt and Springfield built them for a short time. Jim Garthwaite built mine. Most any 9mm or 38 Super 1911 can convert to it. You need something that has a deep mag well to accept the long magazines the cartridge needs.


I've seen maybe 10 that Jim has built, ranging from steel 5" 1911s, down to LW Officer frames with Commander slides - which is an AWESOME size by the way. They are simply great, very versatile, quick shooting guns in that cartridge. And paired with a 9mm barrel, you have a package you can afford to practice with, carrying the same gun you just practiced cheaply with, and don't get beat to hell with in a 1000 rd weekend class.


Jim builds them like no one else. Dane has a lot of popularity, but Jim's the guy I go to for my pistolsmith needs. He's built a bunch, carries a 9x23 himself, and will do work that Dane won't - like build them on a alloy frame.

I'm extremely pleased with mine. I'd like a LW Officer/Commander, but I have no desire to for anything else. I don't think a single stack is a disadvantage at all. In fact, it carries comfortably and is so slim, I think its an advantage.
 
I have a question for all you guys who shoot 9x23 in .38 Super chambers and vice versa.

Do you reload this brass? If so, do you get good results and good life?

There is a slight difference in the dimensions of the 2 cases. This shows up big time if you run the wrong case into the wrong die. (Or perhaps I mean the right die:scrutiny: ).

I can see where the dimensions are so close that some people could get away with firing one in the other, (not that I recommend that practice), but I would think that there would be enough difference in the fired brass to cause problems reloading.

As far as comparing the 9x23mm to the 357 SIG, I have taken a third path. I load 357 SIG with 147 grain bullets seated 1.265" and use 10mm magazines in my rebarreled Delta Elite. I have duplicated the reasonable velocities people claim for the 9x23mm. I have not attained the unreasonable velocities, but then I am some what of a coward. This setup has been reliability challenged, but I think that I am finally getting it right. 9x23mm is certainly easier to work with, and offers higher magazine capacity. 357 SIG brass is strong, if not as strong as 9x23, and a lot cheaper and more readily available.

If I had it all to do over, I would just get a 9x23mm. Still, those long loaded 357 SIGs look cute.:cool:
 
I don't know about anyone else, and I have only been loading and shooting 9X23 for about a year, but I have had ZERO case failures of any sort. I have fired my first 100 case I started with over and over with no problems and I am shooting them in my 38 super. They've probably been reused about 10 or 12 times. I hear they may last dozens of reloads. I don't suggest anyone else do this, but I have had no problems at all in my eqpt. I understand that the restretching of the brass may cause premature failure, but I haven't seen any sign of it yet. I can see the concern and I have been very careful not to take any great chances. It's not a very great difference from 38 super dimensions and may not cause any problems at all. If I run into any problems down the road, I'll report them here.

I agree the 1911 is a great platform for this caliber. I don't have a 1911 in 38 super, but I may start looking for one and then get some work done on it so I can shoot 9X23 in it as well. (and ,as you mentioned, 9mm, so I can practice with WW box)

I love the round. I just have to stay focused on my other endeavors. I want a 1911 in 10mm too. (And a 45 super and a .............)

Anyway the 9X23 Winchester Brass is very tough and lasts quite a while. I just broke out my second 100 rds the other night with another test with 147 gr XTPs with HS6. I decided I'd work up a carry/defense load. I only had HS6 data. Anyone else tried 147gr in this?

Does anyone have any Power Pistol or Long Shot data for 9X23 ?

I usually take the time and work up carefully from 38 super data, but it takes a few trips to the range because I'm somewhat of a coward too. I blew up a .40 S&W (with a factory overcharged load) in a brand new gun a few yrs ago. I'll spare you the story , but it wasn't a pleasurable trip to the range.

good shootin'

-Pat
 
9 X 23 Question?
What is the deal with this cartridge? Why are so few pistols made to shoot this round, it's ballistics are teriffic from what I can see?

Is there no market for it? Is the cartridge too powerful for the pistols making the pistol too expensive to manufacture? Is it no fun to shoot?

Can you taylor pistols made in 9X19 to accept the 9X23?

What be the deal?


Thanks
Marshall
Click to expand...

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.


I converted a Tokarev or two to 9x23mm by reaming out a 9x19mm barrel.
The Tokarevs are designed for the 7.62x25mm Tokarev round with an OAL of 1.35".

That is longer than the magazine design for 45acp at 1.275" or 9x19mm Luger at 1.169"

IIRC, the 9x23mm cartridge is not SAAMI registered, but most put the OAL at 1.245"

I have been shooting 9x23 in my Tokarev with:
158 gr Hornady XTP JHP and 16 gr of Power Pistol, 1.36"
In contrast, the Alliant max load for 357 magnum is:
158 gr Hornady XTP JHP and 8 gr of Power Pistol, 1.575"
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reload...gtypeid=1&weight=158&shellid=1015&bulletid=29

For those who know what that means, they can see my Tokarev has gone atomic with 9x23mm


I also have converted a Star Super B.
That pistol frame with long enough magazine for 9mm Largo, but is chambered for 9x19.
I converted one for 9x23mm and have been shooting it with
158 gr LSWC, 10 gr LONGSHOT, 1.129"
In contrast, Hodgdon in 2002 showed for maximum load for 357 magnum:
158 gr HNDY XTP JHP, 8.4 gr LONGSHOT, 1.580" 1394 fps, 43,200 c.u.p.

To deal with heavy recoil, I reamed out the recoil spring coweling of the Star slide from .431" to .4375", to use a spring from Wolff gunsmith pak #14 with OD = .433". More can be reamed out and a still better spring can be used, the guide rod must be reduced in diameter.


What does it all mean?
My conversions are much cheaper and more powerful than Dane Burns, but his look like jewelry for you ladies.
 
According to string theory, the chambers of all pistols in the universe are conected.

They all help to aborb pressure from occasional high pressure cartridges.

However, due to the glass fibers embedded in the frames of polymer pistols, these pistols actually receive more than their fair share of high pressures.

Ka-Boom!:what:

Since 9x23mm pistols are usually constructed with steel or aluminum frames, string theory works to preserve them.

You seldom ever hear of a 9x23mm Ka-Booming.

Or maybe it has something to do with the thickness of the brass. :neener:
 
I believe what happened was Schrodinger wanted to put his cat in a box with a Geiger counter connected to a 9x23mm pointed at the cat.
But the cat did not like the uncertainty principal of being blown into such tiny pieces, and would rather play with a string.


Personally, 30 years ago I was intrigued when a stream of water would bend toward either a positive or negative charge. It reminded me of gravity, but then I went on to spend much more time pulling a string with a fishing pole to entice my wife's cat to pounce. By 2002, I was experimenting to see how much power I could get out of a Tokarev, and 9x23mm brass from Winchester was the key.

357 SIG with 147 grain bullets seated 1.265" and use 10mm magazines
Click to expand...
Ever consider 40 S&W in 10mm magazines?
The brass is stronger than 10mm.
 
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