I don't understand the rash of .380 pistols today.
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Jwbfx4
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I bought the ruger Lcp at first because, I got a good deal on it. Now I do carry it a good bit, because I dont have to work hard to conceal it, and sometimes its the only option.
LightningMan
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OregonJohnny Hit the nail on the head when he quoted;
When someone comes out with a 9mm pocket pistol that is no larger, wider, or heavier than a Ruger LCP, and costs less than $1,000 (I'm talking to you, Rohrbaugh), then things might be different. But until then, an LCP/P3AT/238/P380 just can't be beat for shear tiny size to power ratio.
The first company that comes out with an affordable 9mm ( $500 to $600 range ) with the size of a LCP will hit the jackpot! $$$$$$
When someone comes out with a 9mm pocket pistol that is no larger, wider, or heavier than a Ruger LCP, and costs less than $1,000 (I'm talking to you, Rohrbaugh), then things might be different. But until then, an LCP/P3AT/238/P380 just can't be beat for shear tiny size to power ratio.
The first company that comes out with an affordable 9mm ( $500 to $600 range ) with the size of a LCP will hit the jackpot! $$$$$$
Buck Snort
Member
I'm think'n that Cor Bon 90 gr. JHP at 1050 fps would be pretty nasty to deal with at close quarter combat range. 
chaplain tom
Member
I like rcmodel's thoughts in post #14. Nobody says you only get to take one shot. But more than that, I took from his post that he is of the mindset that most of us are only going to have to face one attacker. That is the case most of the time. In that case a .380 magazine into a BG's chest will get the job done.
I still only ever carry my Texas Defender because I've never been accosted by more than a single attacker, and when I was attacked by said attacker, the .410 000 buck load was more than enough to end the assault. I had a Silver Tip JHP .45 for my second shot if needed. The Texas Defender fits nicely in my Uncle Mike's IWB holster when I'm going to be out and about. If I'm going to be primarily driving I use the Bond Arms BATB leather holster because it fits high and tight against my body and is easily drawn while sitting. At home I have my XD .45 because I don't have to conceal it.
I suspect that is why so many people like the small .380's for personal protection. They hide nicely and comfortably and they go bang as fast as they can pull the trigger. If attacked by multiple armed attackers, you're probably only going to get off a few shots at one maybe two before you're done anyway.
I still only ever carry my Texas Defender because I've never been accosted by more than a single attacker, and when I was attacked by said attacker, the .410 000 buck load was more than enough to end the assault. I had a Silver Tip JHP .45 for my second shot if needed. The Texas Defender fits nicely in my Uncle Mike's IWB holster when I'm going to be out and about. If I'm going to be primarily driving I use the Bond Arms BATB leather holster because it fits high and tight against my body and is easily drawn while sitting. At home I have my XD .45 because I don't have to conceal it.
I suspect that is why so many people like the small .380's for personal protection. They hide nicely and comfortably and they go bang as fast as they can pull the trigger. If attacked by multiple armed attackers, you're probably only going to get off a few shots at one maybe two before you're done anyway.
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I ussually carry SA EMP or a 1911 .45 SA Compact. In my office nearby is a secured G19. I can't carry while at work because it impossible to conceal anything I currently own. A few months ago a nearly 300 lb male patient came in "asking" for schedule II narcotics and refill of his antipsychotics, then he threw in he had gun with him and shot it well. I talked my way out of the room, and hope to never have to rely on dimplomacy with nothing to back it up. Now I have a .380 poccket gun, wuld prefer 9mm in the same size and will look the the Sig 290 when it comes out. For now the .380 is best answer, not ideal but works.
Quite a few years back there was this guy known as Wild Bill Hickock. In just a few short years he killed several men using an 1851 Colt Navy bp revolver that launched a 90 gr. roundball at about 900 fps.
I don't mean to derail the thread, but I am often struck at awe of the killing prowess of people who lived in a time when modern surgical methods were merely at the 'neat idea' stage.
From what I can find, Hickok's career as a gunfighter did not really start until 1865, when the legend
begins.
Ambroise Paré wrote "The method of curing wounds caused by arquebus and firearms" in the mid 1500s, but his work did not see widepread use for some time. It dealt with replacing cauterization of wounds with application of a turpentine mixture. Also covered more effective blood loss prevention from battlefield wounds and as a result of amputation.
In 1847, Ignaz Semmelweis pioneered the idea of washing hands between surgeries as a method to cut down on death as a result of infection. However, his work was not widely accepted until after Louis Pasteur's ideas on germ theory became known. Pasteur's main works were published between 1866 and 1886. Joseph Lister's "Antiseptic Principle of the Practice of Surgery" was published in 1867. These were times when peer review and dissemination of ideas was also not what it is today (i.e. much slower).
The point I'm trying to make here is that more people are saved today by modern medicine than which caliber you chose in your handgun. I think it might be fair to say that most registered nurses today had more sound medical knowledge to save your life than a backwoods doctor in the 1860s American territories.
Nothing against Wild Bill, the 1851 Navy, or the .380 ACP modern ballistic equivalent. Back to your regularly scheduled thread.
jm
I don't mean to derail the thread, but I am often struck at awe of the killing prowess of people who lived in a time when modern surgical methods were merely at the 'neat idea' stage.
From what I can find, Hickok's career as a gunfighter did not really start until 1865, when the legend
begins.Ambroise Paré wrote "The method of curing wounds caused by arquebus and firearms" in the mid 1500s, but his work did not see widepread use for some time. It dealt with replacing cauterization of wounds with application of a turpentine mixture. Also covered more effective blood loss prevention from battlefield wounds and as a result of amputation.
In 1847, Ignaz Semmelweis pioneered the idea of washing hands between surgeries as a method to cut down on death as a result of infection. However, his work was not widely accepted until after Louis Pasteur's ideas on germ theory became known. Pasteur's main works were published between 1866 and 1886. Joseph Lister's "Antiseptic Principle of the Practice of Surgery" was published in 1867. These were times when peer review and dissemination of ideas was also not what it is today (i.e. much slower).
The point I'm trying to make here is that more people are saved today by modern medicine than which caliber you chose in your handgun. I think it might be fair to say that most registered nurses today had more sound medical knowledge to save your life than a backwoods doctor in the 1860s American territories.
Nothing against Wild Bill, the 1851 Navy, or the .380 ACP modern ballistic equivalent. Back to your regularly scheduled thread.
jm
Exactly because of the popularity of these guns, we did a complete second round of testing of the .380 cartridge this summer. As I note in the Concealed Carry Magazine which will be out this week, I was surprised at the performance of some of the ammunition out of these guns - favorably so.
Me, I'll stick with something more powerful. But I'll say this as well - shooting the Rohrbaugh R380 was a *much* more pleasant experience than shooting my R9. There's an extra level of control with the .380 version, even though everything else about the guns is identical.
And I think that is telling - these very small guns are much more manageable in .380 than they would be in 9x19. That will make a very big difference to a lot of people.
Jim Downey
Me, I'll stick with something more powerful. But I'll say this as well - shooting the Rohrbaugh R380 was a *much* more pleasant experience than shooting my R9. There's an extra level of control with the .380 version, even though everything else about the guns is identical.
And I think that is telling - these very small guns are much more manageable in .380 than they would be in 9x19. That will make a very big difference to a lot of people.
Jim Downey
Erik M
Member
With the avalability of tilting barrel 9mm pistols in the same size & weight bracket as a blowback .380 I can't imagine myself ever spending money on the latter.
DAdams
Member
The
Gun I Carry When I don't need a Gun.
Seecamp .380
Gun I Carry When I don't need a Gun.
Seecamp .380
It is very very simple. People buy them.
I think the question you mean to ask is why do more people not want something else and why has the market not be driven in another direction.
Most CCW holders are what I would call "casual carries". People like little guns that are very easy to conceal. An LCP is as easy as putting your phone in your pocket. They also like inexpensive guns. Most people that only carry a pocket pistol seem to take solace in having a gun but see little need for more gun, either due to confidence in the caliber or feeling they have a low threat level.
As to your premise there really are no 9mm guns as small as the smallest .380s.
The ones the size of a Mustang/238 are very expensive compared to the smaller 380s.
I think you will find that there have been WAY more LCPs sold than PM9s. Its a price thing. $260 or $600+?
TexasBill
Member
.380 is adequate for the majority of self-defense situations and .380 pistols generally hold more ammunition than the small-framed revolvers.
I don't carry (or own) a LCP, which I find unpleasant to shoot. but I do carry a couple of larger .380s: a Beretta 84FS Cheetah and a Walther PK380.
The Walther is an extremely pleasant gun to shoot, is accurate and not difficult to conceal in normal street clothing. I have a total of nine rounds available and I have seen the PK380 advertised for as little as $299.00 at Bud's Gun Shop.
The Beretta is also pleasant to shoot and holds 13 rounds. I will be the first to confess my attachment to the Beretta is largely because it is beautiful and fits my hand like few other handguns. It's relatively heavy, making belt carry mandatory, and the double-stack magazine means a thick grip. Circumstances that will allow the comfortable carry of the Beretta will also allow me to carry either my Beretta PX4 Storm or FN Herstal FNP-9.
I don't like the postage-stamp pistols for two reasons: First, they don't lend themselves to frequent practice with carry ammo. Second, they are not as controllable for follow-up shots. Say what you want about it; physics is physics. You may not feel the pain, but the gun is going to jump and buck just as much in a SHTF situation as it does on the range. Part of the problem is the size and weight of the gun itself; the other part is the tiny grips. The pinkie finger plays a surprisingly large role in grip strength, which in turn plays a large role in controllability. These are among the reasons it bothers me when a newbie picks up one of these tiny pistols as their first handgun.
IMHO, comfortable concealed carry is an important consideration but if you are going to go armed at all, competence with the weapon is far more important. There are plenty of owners who, for one reason or another, will make the effort to become competent with their LCP or Seecamp, but I would bet money there are even more owners who won't but might have if they had purchased a more suitable firearm.
I don't carry (or own) a LCP, which I find unpleasant to shoot. but I do carry a couple of larger .380s: a Beretta 84FS Cheetah and a Walther PK380.
The Walther is an extremely pleasant gun to shoot, is accurate and not difficult to conceal in normal street clothing. I have a total of nine rounds available and I have seen the PK380 advertised for as little as $299.00 at Bud's Gun Shop.
The Beretta is also pleasant to shoot and holds 13 rounds. I will be the first to confess my attachment to the Beretta is largely because it is beautiful and fits my hand like few other handguns. It's relatively heavy, making belt carry mandatory, and the double-stack magazine means a thick grip. Circumstances that will allow the comfortable carry of the Beretta will also allow me to carry either my Beretta PX4 Storm or FN Herstal FNP-9.
I don't like the postage-stamp pistols for two reasons: First, they don't lend themselves to frequent practice with carry ammo. Second, they are not as controllable for follow-up shots. Say what you want about it; physics is physics. You may not feel the pain, but the gun is going to jump and buck just as much in a SHTF situation as it does on the range. Part of the problem is the size and weight of the gun itself; the other part is the tiny grips. The pinkie finger plays a surprisingly large role in grip strength, which in turn plays a large role in controllability. These are among the reasons it bothers me when a newbie picks up one of these tiny pistols as their first handgun.
IMHO, comfortable concealed carry is an important consideration but if you are going to go armed at all, competence with the weapon is far more important. There are plenty of owners who, for one reason or another, will make the effort to become competent with their LCP or Seecamp, but I would bet money there are even more owners who won't but might have if they had purchased a more suitable firearm.
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They sell very well right now, that is all.
Why do people want them? The average concealed carrier wants a gun that is cheap, small enough to carry in a pocket and of a decent caliber. Pocket .380s around the 3-4 hundred $ range fit the bill. Are they the ideal CCW? Nope, but they are convenient and good enough for the average SD encounter. The price of .380 ammo doesn't bother the average person because they don't shoot that much.
I'm a big fan of pocket carry, but I like to think I have the best of both worlds with my kahr pm9. Mind you true pocket 9mms are rare in variety and often more than twice as expensive as their .380 cousins. Also, lately word has gotten out that .380 isn't so anemic after all.
Jframe.38
Member
.380 is better than no gun at all
1. I own a ruger LCP. It's purpose is so that I can carry a gun in places I normally am incapable of concealing one and it allows me to carry a second gun very discreetly when I otherwise would be unable to conceal one. I can carry an lcp when I am running, swimming (put a plastic bag over the holster and put it in one of the new cargo pocket swim suits), or as a second gun in deep concealment.
2. I'd rather have an LCP (or any other .380) than no gun at all or a .22 or .25. The lcp is smaller than many .25s, it hides at times that I can't get another gun to conceal well.
3. It is cheap. I can wear it close to my body when I sweat profusely and if it rusts shut I am not out that much money.
1. I own a ruger LCP. It's purpose is so that I can carry a gun in places I normally am incapable of concealing one and it allows me to carry a second gun very discreetly when I otherwise would be unable to conceal one. I can carry an lcp when I am running, swimming (put a plastic bag over the holster and put it in one of the new cargo pocket swim suits), or as a second gun in deep concealment.
2. I'd rather have an LCP (or any other .380) than no gun at all or a .22 or .25. The lcp is smaller than many .25s, it hides at times that I can't get another gun to conceal well.
3. It is cheap. I can wear it close to my body when I sweat profusely and if it rusts shut I am not out that much money.
Clark
Member
Here is a picture of my shirt, with a cell phone in one shirt pocket and in the other a P3AT with 7 rounds of 90 gr Gold Dot at 1100 fps, that weighs 10 ounces loaded.
I live in a community with 20,000 people where a week can go by with the only reported crime is car got prowled.
The situation does not warrant me carrying a full sized 45.
I live in a community with 20,000 people where a week can go by with the only reported crime is car got prowled.
The situation does not warrant me carrying a full sized 45.
Attachments
.380 caliber pistols are popular today for the same reasons .38 and .32 Colt and S&W caliber revolvers were popular in years past.
Affordable, lightweight, small, considered powerful enough for in the home defense and not too overwhelming for the masses of untrained shooters who want a defense type handgun.
Most of these folks won't shoot two boxes of shells through the gun in a lifetime and are comfortable knowing they have SOMETHING available to them, "Just in case".
Affordable, lightweight, small, considered powerful enough for in the home defense and not too overwhelming for the masses of untrained shooters who want a defense type handgun.
Most of these folks won't shoot two boxes of shells through the gun in a lifetime and are comfortable knowing they have SOMETHING available to them, "Just in case".
HadEmAll
Member
There is a time when a pocket pistol is just the ticket. When you are talking about a pocket pistol, every millimeter in any dimension can be meaningful. Everybody's pants have different tightness, pocket depth, etc. The LCP fits my bill in certain situations. I also pocket carry a LCR and a CW40 in some situations, but they don't glide out of the pocket like my LCP.
Just about the only time I ever carry my .380 LCP as a primary is at the dentist and doctor's office. Both have those vague "no guns" signs in the entry area, which have no legal affect on me, but show the attitude in those offices. The LCP fits nice and flat in my right pants pocket when I'm reclining in the dentists chair or the table in the doctor's office, is very accessible, and with 6 90 grain JHPs and two spare magazines, and the short distances involved, will hopefully serve me well until I get home and change to my normal larger primary.
Just about the only time I ever carry my .380 LCP as a primary is at the dentist and doctor's office. Both have those vague "no guns" signs in the entry area, which have no legal affect on me, but show the attitude in those offices. The LCP fits nice and flat in my right pants pocket when I'm reclining in the dentists chair or the table in the doctor's office, is very accessible, and with 6 90 grain JHPs and two spare magazines, and the short distances involved, will hopefully serve me well until I get home and change to my normal larger primary.
oldfool
Member
you might as well ask why people still buy 2 shot derringers instead of seven shot derringers
LCP = seven shot derringer
but people obviously keep making 2-shots, because (some) people keep buying them
derringer, it is what it is, it's not what it's not
LCP = seven shot derringer
but people obviously keep making 2-shots, because (some) people keep buying them
derringer, it is what it is, it's not what it's not
scottishclaymore
Member
I would say the .380's out there fill an important market niche. While I prefer my airweight J-Frame personally, I think anything that is good for the market is good for all of us. In my case, though, I have massive hands and they make little postage-stamp guns unpleasant.
The wife carries a Bersa Thunder .380. That's another gun that many people don't see a use for, since there are 9mm's in the same size. But the fact is that my wife doesn't feel comfortable with or enjoy shooting a 9mm because of the recoil (she's VERY petite and has tiny, girly hands). For the same reason she can't really do the tiny .380's. So the Bersa is a good compromise for her. We keep it loaded with Hornady Critical Defense 90 gr. FTX hollowpoints, and she carries it and shoots it very well. She's very comfortable with the gun and actually enjoys and anticipates range trips because of it.
That's the great thing about living in a country where the gun market can be so varied - there's something for everybody.
The wife carries a Bersa Thunder .380. That's another gun that many people don't see a use for, since there are 9mm's in the same size. But the fact is that my wife doesn't feel comfortable with or enjoy shooting a 9mm because of the recoil (she's VERY petite and has tiny, girly hands). For the same reason she can't really do the tiny .380's. So the Bersa is a good compromise for her. We keep it loaded with Hornady Critical Defense 90 gr. FTX hollowpoints, and she carries it and shoots it very well. She's very comfortable with the gun and actually enjoys and anticipates range trips because of it.
That's the great thing about living in a country where the gun market can be so varied - there's something for everybody.
I walk around daily with my Diamondback .380 and Clark's picture is a very good reason I like these little pistols...They are very light and easy to conceal.
I own an early 1970's made S&W M 37 Airweight and it is nice but there is no way it is as concealeable as the current crop of small,made to conceal .380's.
With my .380 I can carry it in my front pocket holstered,in my back pocket holstered,in my Bulldog cell phone style holster if I am wearing tight jeans such as this very afternoon waiting in line for a Honey-Baked Ham for part of our Thanksgiving dinner.
This pistol fully loaded weighs 12.2 ounces.
Sure a 9mm or .45 ACP would be nice but frankly I have no want to carry that much iron off my belt or stuck down in my gut in an IWB holster while bending over,driving,or making time for a fast walk.
YMMV.
I own an early 1970's made S&W M 37 Airweight and it is nice but there is no way it is as concealeable as the current crop of small,made to conceal .380's.
With my .380 I can carry it in my front pocket holstered,in my back pocket holstered,in my Bulldog cell phone style holster if I am wearing tight jeans such as this very afternoon waiting in line for a Honey-Baked Ham for part of our Thanksgiving dinner.
This pistol fully loaded weighs 12.2 ounces.
Sure a 9mm or .45 ACP would be nice but frankly I have no want to carry that much iron off my belt or stuck down in my gut in an IWB holster while bending over,driving,or making time for a fast walk.
YMMV.
outerlimit
Member
I never understood the .380 craze either. Well I guess that's not true, I did used to carry a .32acp until I managed to trade into a new 9x19mm Kahr. Mostly it was because the Kahr was about three times as much as the .32acp and I was strapped for cash back then. I'd never use a .380 unless there was nothing else available. 9x19mm from a short barrel is underpowered enough.
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