I don't understand the rash of .380 pistols today.

[BADUNAME13]

Well, when one poster calls another lazy because that latter doesn't wish to carry around an extra 4oz or 6 oz or whatever.... well, I feel he crosses the line. It is a personal choice, after all. He backs it up by stating that he knows of someone who took 13 rounds to be taken down with 2 to the head. Very valid points. I can post thousands of links of people who died after 1 or 2 rounds. A .380 can kill. A .45 can kill. A .22 can kill. We all know this. By his words, if someone attacks him it is his duty to kill the attacker (declared war) but the normal SD situation is to stop the threat. He feels he needs an RPG to feel safe and others choose a .380 to feel safe. To each his own. When he calls others lazy because they don't feel the same as he does is out of line, period.
__________________

I did NOT call you Lazy.

I said that one of the main reasons for the popularity of .380 mouseguns WAS lazyness...

YOU 'outed yourself' from there!

I own a couple .380's.

One (Russian Mak) SIts in the safe, I think I've shot it once in the last year.
The other (Kel Tec) Is loaned out to a buddy of mine's fiancee...

She is using it because she is unwilling to carry anything bigger...

LAZY!

The couple Oz clipped in the waistband of her scrubs is less of a hassle than her phone (Her words, not mine)


Anything (Including a BB gun) can kill.

What I am concerned about (As you stated, which tells me you know, and makes me consider the possibility you are 'knee jerking' defensive...)
Is STOPPING the threat.

I stand by my statement that handguns in general, and (In particular) rounds smaller than a GOOD HP 9mm or .38 are NOT adequate man STOPPERS.

You (Speaking in generalities) can do your own research into wether you agree or disagree with me, I'm not trying to get into a fight... meerly to answer the Question...

Convinance, But, as Clint Smith said "Firearms are NOT intended to be COMFORTABLE, they are ment to be COMFORTING."

And, as I aluded to, get used to the J frame, or Subcompact Glock in your pocket... Or buy a good quality belt and holster...
And the decent sized pistol will also be comfortable!

(This coming from someone who has CCW'd a .22MAG and .32 int he past... I have learned.)

 

[larryh1108]

There is a difference between being a man stopper and stopping a threat. Most of the time the wolves are actually little chickens who will run at the sight of a gun. The gun can be a .22 or a .454 but they don't stick around to find out. Threat stopped.

Yes, if you are robbed by an organized gang who are used to guns and knives and are probably strung out on some chemical then your odds depreciate greatly. These are usually when you trek into their territory (lost on a drive?) and "look" vulnerable. (white couple driving a BMW in a known gang neighborhood). I believe your organized criminals resort to home burglaries or bigger "scores" than the typical couple out on the town. The predators who pick on the helpless folks at Walmart or the local ATM are the gutless punks who are not known for their intelligence. Home defense should be with the biggest caliber you have. CCW is a personal choice due to many different scenarios. It's not laziness, it is personal need. Yes, it was a knee jerk answer. I'll still agree to disagree that carrying a .380 instead of a +9mm is laziness.

 

[BADUNAME13]

There is a difference between being a man stopper and stopping a threat. Most of the time the wolves are actually little chickens who will run at the sight of a gun. The gun can be a .22 or a .454 but they don't stick around to find out. Threat stopped.

Yes, if you are robbed by an organized gang who are used to guns and knives and are probably strung out on some chemical then your odds depreciate greatly. These are usually when you trek into their territory (lost on a drive?) and "look" vulnerable. (white couple driving a BMW in a known gang neighborhood). I believe your organized criminals resort to home burglaries or bigger "scores" than the typical couple out on the town. The predators who pick on the helpless folks at Walmart or the local ATM are the gutless punks who are not known for their intelligence. Home defense should be with the biggest caliber you have. CCW is a personal choice due to many different scenarios. It's not laziness, it is personal need. Yes, it was a knee jerk answer. I'll still agree to disagree that carrying a .380 instead of a +9mm is laziness.

If you wish to bet your life on those "probably's"... That's fine. It's your decision and your life.

Do you admit that it's 'convenience' that makes you go with the pistol just a few (What did you say? 4 or 6?) oz lighter...?
(Another word for lazy...)

What made me decide not to carry the little .32 I was toting (Actually as a BUG) was me looking down and asking myself if I REALLY wanted to get in a gunfight with it...

IF your OK with it...

Great.

My research tells me I can't pick 'my gunfight'... If I can... I'm sleeping in that day!

(And with Drugs etc... there's not telling where/when the nutjob will be...)

 

[Ben86]

While this is true....


Carry it for a month and you WON'T notice the difference!


And NO, .380 is NOT 'adequate'....

If someone is trying to kill me.... it's a war. Call it what you want.

Hell, ALL pistols are marginal for self protection.

Reason their are so many of them...

People are lazy.

Not adequate by what standards? Does it have to reliably stop them in 1, 2 or 3 shots to the torso? Well, none of the practical handgun rounds will do that. So, I'm not sure why you believe the .380 to be so inadequate. I mean, what exactly will it not do that the others will?

For some people the .380 pocket pistol is just for convenience sake, for some it happens to be the most practical gun according to their CC situation. To generalize and say they are simply lazy is ignorant.

 

[Redneck with a 40]

9mm subcompacts today are almost as small as the 380's, I'd much rather have 15 rounds of 9mm in a subcompact versus (6) 380 rounds in a mini pistol.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Nomad, would you prefer those people who carry .380s not carry at all? I'm not sure what you're getting at. Carrying a pistol in the first place is an exercise in sacrifice. Pistols are generally not good combat weapons, no matter what the caliber. I personally would rather carry an M4. I'm better with one and it's a more reliable man-stopper than any pistol round. But I can't do that due to portability, concealability, etc. So carrying a pistol at all is already giving some lethality up in exchange for other benefits. The same applies when choosing caliber or weapon size. Sometimes the benefits of having a tiny pistol outweigh the gains of a larger caliber weapon. It's a continuum. The situation dictates the most appropriate weapon. What one can carry in the fall under a jacket might not be what one can carry when wearing a tucked in shirt with no jacket. Sometimes sacrifices must be made in order to carry at all. So again, would you prefer these people to just not carry if they can't carry the gun you think is the best?

 

[BADUNAME13]

Well, none of the practical handgun rounds will do that.

We agree!

I said:
Hell, ALL pistols are marginal for self protection.

So, I'm not sure why you believe the .380 to be so inadequate. I mean, what exactly will it not do that the others will?

Ummm.... Because of what YOU (And I) just said!
This is why we train for 'stoping' shots correct?
It does us no good to hit an artery and have your attacker bleed out minutes after they kill you...

Pistols are Marginal (In the best of circumstances) for stopping 200 pounds of 'creature'
We accept this limitation due to legalities and social stigmas about carrying more effective weapons (Longarms)

So why not carry as effective (Powerful, capacity, and manageable) a weapon as possible????

I believe it not to be effective enough FOR ME because of what I have read and seen about penatration and expansion.

For some people the .380 pocket pistol is just for convenience sake, for some it happens to be the most practical gun according to their CC situation. To generalize and say they are simply lazy is ignorant.

Isn't that what you just said?

I just was a little more 'direct' about it?

If I am wrong... do you hunt deer with a Keltec 380 or Shoot practical Pistol (If so, I'd like to see the scores)

Please understand... I UNDERSTAND limitations. I carried a Keltec when I was wearing Class A's or Dress Blues (Or in PT gear) when I was on active duty.

FEW people carry them for these reasons.
MOST do it because it is "convenient"... Which is another word for 'Too lazy to carry a larger pistol that they would use for killing 200 pound creatures, a Pistol Comp, or in Iraq.' ...Or if they actually had to use it in defense of themselves and their loved ones.

I PREFER S&W revolvers... Used to CCW a Bodyguard.
A Subcompact Glock is the smallest gun I'd want in a fight, so I don't CCW the Smith anymore...

I offer for your consideration, that I MAY have put ALOT of thought into this...
And to off hand say i am ignorant... Is ignorant!

I'm not beating up/or insulting ANYONE for their choice of gun.
1. It's their OWN life
2. They atleast HAVE a gun.

I DO believe they should NOT Shoot those 5 inch 1911's and such at the range, and insted shoot and compete with the .380 they have in their pocket.

Was it Col Cooper who said that having a pistol no more makes you a gunman than owning a piano makes you a concert pianist?

 

[BADUNAME13]

Ragnar Danneskjold:

I believe the post I made while you were posting yours covers most of your questions.
Again, I am NOT trying to argue here or put people down.

I AM saying... that An Airweight .38 or Subcompact Glock IS concealable...

In ankle holsters, in pocket holsters of Jeans OR dress pants.

TRY it for a week and see if I'm wrong.

ETA: Oh, and when I was stationed in Mobile I CCW'd a 5 inch 1911 in the summer wearing Jeans and under a T shirt.
AGAIN... Quality holster and belt make ALL the difference.

 

[mljdeckard]

I carry a full-size 1911 tear-round, including 100+ degree summers. Comfort is relative. UNWILLING to conceal is not the same thing as UNABLE to conceal.

 

[goon]

nevermind...

 

[ReadyontheRight]

But remember as well, the Russians kept their rifles a lot closer than American cops do. And a lot more of them. As Stalin once said; "Quantity has a quality all its own."

"Use your pistol to get to your rifle" has a much different tone if you are using a .45acp to get to your 30-06 or if you are using your .380 to get to your 7.62x39

Just had to get a shot in there for my USA heroes winning the last few big wars.

Of course, the .223 and the 9mm throw a big bucket of ice cold water on my fun. But it's still fun to think that Americans think BIG.

Either way, .380 will still likely stop a bad guy. Just realize that there are more powerful alternatives. Pack accordingly.

 

[TexasBill]

There has been a massive influx of new permit holders and women etc interested in SD, a .380 is often a preference of theirs, smaller size for smaller hands, low recoil etc

While there are certainly exceptions, a small, lightweight pistol is one of the worst choices I can imagine for a woman. A fair number of men find firing the LCP to be unpleasant; it can actually be quite painful for a woman. The same is true of the lightweight snubnose revolvers. It can also be difficult for a woman to bring the gun back into position for follow-up shots.

In addition, the small grips on these guns don't allow the use of all the fingers in gripping. The pinkie finger, though small, plays an important role in grip strength. Since women (making a politically incorrect generalization here) usually have less grip strength than men, they need to be able to grip the gun with all fingers for maximum control.

Most important, however, is the fact these small guns require spending a reasonable amount of range time to become proficient in their use. A gun that is unpleasant to shoot probably isn't going to get that range time.

I am not saying this is true for all women (or all men, either). What I am saying is that we might want to think twice before jumping to the small person = small gun conclusion. There are a number of handguns that might really be better choices, especially as a first concealed-carry firearm.

 

[larryh1108]

I DO believe they should NOT Shoot those 5 inch 1911's and such at the range, and insted shoot and compete with the .380 they have in their pocket.

Personally, I have over 1300 rounds thru my LCP. I do have more than 1600 thru my PM9. If I carry it, I shoot it to learn it inside and out. I don't mind the recoil of the LCP but after 100 rounds thru it I am ready for my PM9 or 1911 or whatever else I brought that day. I am comfortable with the LCP out to about 25'. Anything further and I'm sure I'd wish for more gun but those also aren't SD distances. My PM9 is a pretty amazing gun and I am comfortable with it to about 50'. I kinow what my weapons are capable of and I know what I am capable of. That makes a huge difference, to me.

 

[BADUNAME13]

Personally, I have over 1300 rounds thru my LCP. I do have more than 1600 thru my PM9. If I carry it, I shoot it to learn it inside and out. I don't mind the recoil of the LCP but after 100 rounds thru it I am ready for my PM9 or 1911 or whatever else I brought that day. I am comfortable with the LCP out to about 25'. Anything further and I'm sure I'd wish for more gun but those also aren't SD distances. My PM9 is a pretty amazing gun and I am comfortable with it to about 50'. I kinow what my weapons are capable of and I know what I am capable of. That makes a huge difference, to me.

You have my honest congradulations.

VERY few will do what you do.

That said, I'd say 1300 to be VERY minimal in the 'scale' of things...

my MAIN Glock has over 10K through it...

And I should shoot more!

As to 'SD distances' I'm back in school for Emergency Management.
I've done several projects on 'Active shooters'


IF you believe it to be a concern as I do... Please reexamine.

Once again, you are doing what EVERYONE should... Not intended as a slight.

 

[TexasBill]

Personally, I have over 1300 rounds thru my LCP. I do have more than 1600 thru my PM9. If I carry it, I shoot it to learn it inside and out. I don't mind the recoil of the LCP but after 100 rounds thru it I am ready for my PM9 or 1911 or whatever else I brought that day. I am comfortable with the LCP out to about 25'. Anything further and I'm sure I'd wish for more gun but those also aren't SD distances. My PM9 is a pretty amazing gun and I am comfortable with it to about 50'. I kinow what my weapons are capable of and I know what I am capable of. That makes a huge difference, to me.

That's the attitude to take. I do the same thing with my S&W Airweight. I don't quite have a thousand rounds through this one (I bought my first Airweight almost 40 years ago), but there hasn't been a wadcutter in the bunch.

 

[harmon rabb]

[qupte]While there are certainly exceptions, a small, lightweight pistol is one of the worst choices I can imagine for a woman. A fair number of men find firing the LCP to be unpleasant; it can actually be quite painful for a woman. The same is true of the lightweight snubnose revolvers. It can also be difficult for a woman to bring the gun back into position for follow-up shots[/quote]

This is why my wife has a Bersa Thunder and a PK380. I wouldn't dream of subjecting her to my LCP. She's no wimp and can manage most rounds (I've had her firing .357 out of my GP100), but she starts to flinch, and her shooting goes to crap. With these two "full size" 380's, she's fine.

I also sheepishly admit to loving how that PK380 shoots and bringing it to the range with me regularly

 

[LibShooter]

If you wish to bet your life on those "probably's"... That's fine. It's your decision and your life.

You hear that argument all the time from folks who love their big ol' guns. But honestly, we bet our lives on "probablies" every day. The plane probably won't crash. That bus will probably stop at the light. It's probably just a cold.

All we can do is make personal informed decisions on the relative risks of what we do. My tiny .38 Special or .380 is probably going to be plenty. If a stumble into a Crips and Bloods grudge match, it won't be. The .45 I left at home because it's so darned heavy probably won't be either. Sometimes it's just not your day.

 

[BADUNAME13]

You hear that argument all the time from folks who love their big ol' guns. But honestly, we bet our lives on "probablies" every day. The plane probably won't crash. That bus will probably stop at the light. It's probably just a cold.

All we can do is make personal informed decisions on the relative risks of what we do. My tiny .38 Special or .380 is probably going to be plenty. If a stumble into a Crips and Bloods grudge match, it won't be. The .45 I left at home because it's so darned

This is very true. But I said THOSE probabilities. TO ME there were alot of them.

If you are comfortable with them... that's fine. I'm good so long as someone understands the risks they take.

In a similar way I ride Motorcycles. But I wear head to toe gear. And it's paid off. I would not have a right kneecap if it were not for the Kevlar plate in my riding pants, if I had been wearing just leathers or nothing...

Risk analisis...

Ok, my Old Kimber Pro carry weights less than a Ruger MK2 when it's loaded with (9) rounds of 45.

Havn't weighed my Glock 30, but it's lighter I believe!

You are to be congradulated for carrying a gun. And I hope when/if you never miss or end up having to deal with more than one enemy.

 

[smallbore]

Let's see. . .(1) "If we build it, they will buy." The gun makers sure know how to utilize advertising/marketing. (2) For some individuals it's about how much recoil they can tolerate and still be able to protect their loved ones/themselves. (3) For others it may be the centerfire gun that all household members can operate in the event it becomes neccessary.

 

[goon]

I agree on pretty much all of this -
1. The .380 is too small. In terms of really being a reliable stopper, anything less than a double-tap of expanding 7.62x51 is less reliable than I would like to stop an aggressor. But you have to compromise and there are cases when some absolutely cannot afford for their handgun to be discovered. I find myself in these occasions at times so I don't carry - but I wish I could. A tiny handgun would be better than no handgun at all in this case.

2. Practice will be necessary. But you could say this of any handgun given the lack of real power they bring to the table. Compared to a rifle, handguns are generally downright anemic. But I am also one of those guys who finds a mini-.380 to be a very unpleasant gun to shoot. I routinely shoot a 3" SP-101 .357 with full power loads without discomfort, but the tiny grip on those mini-380's and my big hands mean I can't hang on to them and because of how they're built, you can't really do much about the grips. So they beat the hell out of my trigger finger during recoil, meaning that I generally wouldn't want to shoot more than a magazine full out of one. Given the choice, I'd drop to a .32 in that size gun (yeah, I know... the heresy!). I'd also never hand a small .380 to an inexperienced shooter. My ex-GF chose a .22 for her first handgun and although I really wanted her to go at least with a .380 around the size of a Bersa or CZ-83, an SP-101 using .32 Mag or loaded with mid-range .38 Special, or a compact 9mm, she just had it in her head that it was gonna be a .22.
So she got a Walther P-22 and I have helped her break it in and take her shooting when she visits. It's the most anemic choice, but at least it's a gun.

 

[TheProf]

Remember the journey that many of shooter's go through... It's a learning curve. I started with a NAA .22, then .380s..... then 9mm...then ....40SW....(and maybe back to 9mm?)

 

[Ben86]

I offer for your consideration, that I MAY have put ALOT of thought into this...
And to off hand say i am ignorant... Is ignorant!

Ok, that's a little harsh and I apologize. It just seemed to me that you were saying all people who opt for a pocket .380 over a larger gun with larger caliber are lazy. I see now that you didn't mean that. I agree that some are just being lazy, but some with some people that is all they can carry on them.

 

[Cap'n Jack Burntbeard]

Most of the hate for .380s that has been spewed in this thread comes from a lack of understanding. A lack of understanding that different situations call for different weapon choices.

I work in a large machine shop that has a draconian anti-weapons policy, to the point that some are afraid to carry a pocket knife.
In that kind of environment my P3-AT in my pocket serves me well, the damn thing is near invisible.
It is the one gun that I can always carry no matter what, it is the modern equivalent of the derringer, carried by gentlemen so that others behave as gentlemen.

 

[gatopardo]

Not inferior

for some small weapons .380 is the only option, is about the only decent caliber you can pack in your pocket.

I carry on my waist a PF9 9MM and even being a small thin gun, it's a pain literally.

 

[QUICK_DRAW_McGRAW]

i carry a Kel-Tec P3AT in my front pocket while at work. being a mechanic its hard to carry a full sized gun without it printing infront of a customer, jabbing me in the side when im under a dash, or scratching the customers paint/interior.

but when i am not on the clock i have my Sigma .40 on my hip