Lots of good stuff in your post, and I appreciate it. However, the above quote is a little strange, in that 9mm and .40 S&W have essentially the same operating pressure. The .40 has more case volume, so that same pressure generates more force on the bullet (and more recoil to the shooter), but it's not a pressure issue, per se. Sorry to nitpick, I'm sure you know all that, just don't want others to get confused.
9mm 124-grain +P ... so good?
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Lots of good stuff in your post, and I appreciate it. However, the above quote is a little strange, in that 9mm and .40 S&W have essentially the same operating pressure. The .40 has more case volume, so that same pressure generates more force on the bullet (and more recoil to the shooter), but it's not a pressure issue, per se. Sorry to nitpick, I'm sure you know all that, just don't want others to get confused.
According to original design 9mm Luger is supposed to be either 115 grains going 1300fps or 124 grains going 1200fps. I prefer the 124 grain load to better ensure penetration. However, these days 115-147 grains will all perform fantastically with premium designs. The days of choosing having expansion or penetration are over due to the advanced design of ammunition these days.
Therefore 9mm+P 124 grain Fed HST JHP is my chosen load. I have considered the Underwood Ammo +P+ load with a 124 grain Gold Dot JHP doing 1300fps. But, I think I may be sacrificing too much in recoil control and I love the HST bullet. Maybe I will have to buy a box and see how they do (if they ever have them in stock).
It does not surprise me at all to read about LE agencies switching back to 9mm now that the ammo performs so well and the difference between it and .40, .45 is so marginal. I think we discovered this in the "civilian" world a long time ago.
Therefore 9mm+P 124 grain Fed HST JHP is my chosen load. I have considered the Underwood Ammo +P+ load with a 124 grain Gold Dot JHP doing 1300fps. But, I think I may be sacrificing too much in recoil control and I love the HST bullet. Maybe I will have to buy a box and see how they do (if they ever have them in stock).
It does not surprise me at all to read about LE agencies switching back to 9mm now that the ammo performs so well and the difference between it and .40, .45 is so marginal. I think we discovered this in the "civilian" world a long time ago.
The 40 S&W isn't a solution in search of a problem - it was a solution to a problem the FBI faced in the late 80s.
A downloaded 10mm cartridge would have solved that problem also - but why have use such a big gun and a big cartridge if you're going to use "light" loads in it anyway (light for 10mm)
In the last 24 years ammo makers have improved the design of 9mm cartridges to solve the same problem that the FBI was trying to solve in the late 80s - bullets that can penetrate barriers and still penetrate a human to adequate depths - specifically 12" or more.
A downloaded 10mm cartridge would have solved that problem also - but why have use such a big gun and a big cartridge if you're going to use "light" loads in it anyway (light for 10mm)
In the last 24 years ammo makers have improved the design of 9mm cartridges to solve the same problem that the FBI was trying to solve in the late 80s - bullets that can penetrate barriers and still penetrate a human to adequate depths - specifically 12" or more.
Brass Fetcher
Member
Here is its performance against simulated bad guy :
Slow Motion video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6noiXAFHAE8
Report : http://www.brassfetcher.com/SimulatedShotlinesthroughtheHumanBody.pdf
Slow Motion video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6noiXAFHAE8
Report : http://www.brassfetcher.com/SimulatedShotlinesthroughtheHumanBody.pdf
Nom de Forum
Member
I don't have a link for you but I am sure a 124-gr +P does have very good performance. Just about every modern expanding bullet designed for 9, 40, or 45 does with good shot placement. With poor shot placement none of them have outstanding performance. The differences in performance between these calibers has been exaggerated for about a century.
Nom de Forum
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Well maybe the .45 and 9mm, not so much the .40.Being that it's only about 23 years of age.
Thanks for the info Brass. It's always appreciated.
Sorry Ben86, you are incorrect about the age of .40 caliber pistol cartridges. The .40 S&W is not even close to being the first .40 caliber pistol cartridge. "The differences in performance between these calibers has been exaggerated for about a century" is correct.
NewGuy1911
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I'm an older newbie, been on the side lines a while and really know zip. I read a number of post about the 9mm rds improved preformance, seems to me the 45 acp would have also been improved/advanced. I'm thinking with fmj the 45 acp comes out a little ahead. Not knowing zip, the modern 45 acp should still come out a little ahead of the 9mm.
I just bought a 9mm pistol. Not sure why, maybe ammo cost/availabilty, less recoil, twice the number of rounds (2 X 115gr = 230 gr). The 124 gr ammo is what I plan to use and probably will try the 147 gr.
Question about shooting through glass (auto window glass), if a hp does not go through does a fmj round (to be followed by a hp round)?
Happy Holidays
I just bought a 9mm pistol. Not sure why, maybe ammo cost/availabilty, less recoil, twice the number of rounds (2 X 115gr = 230 gr). The 124 gr ammo is what I plan to use and probably will try the 147 gr.
Question about shooting through glass (auto window glass), if a hp does not go through does a fmj round (to be followed by a hp round)?
Happy Holidays
Big_John1961
Member
^^I'll go out on a limb and state that most .45ACP shooters use the standard pressure 230gr JHP, which has been a standard for this caliber for a long because it's been proven effective under harsh conditions. FMJ was used up to the point that hollow points were developed, most of the caliber's history. While there's been development and improvement in the .45ACP cartridge over the last 25 years, I'd hazard to guess that there's been more in the 9mm Luger, namely because there was more room for improvement.
Both are effective handgun calibers. The tradeoffs are as you noted, capacity, cost, weight, availability. And JHP 9mm bullets do go through glass, which was one of the aformentioned improvements made to the cartridge in the past quarter century. It's one of the criteria the FBI uses when evaluating a cartridge's effectiveness.
Both are effective handgun calibers. The tradeoffs are as you noted, capacity, cost, weight, availability. And JHP 9mm bullets do go through glass, which was one of the aformentioned improvements made to the cartridge in the past quarter century. It's one of the criteria the FBI uses when evaluating a cartridge's effectiveness.
I see what you mean now. You win.
New guy, well designed 9mm jhp does go through auto glass effectively. However the trajectory changes depending on whether you are shooting from inside or outside the car. I believe it's high going in and low going out if I'm not mistanken.
Do a search for Proarms podcast, I believe the show was titled "What's your caliber" or something like that. They go through all the typical calibers and what has been found to be the best self defense rounds. These guys deal with law enforcement so I would think they know what they are talking about. For the 9mm they liked the Ranger in 127gr, I believe, and the Gold Dot 124 gr +P.
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