9mm doable?

[FranklyTodd]

I didn't read all, so sorry if duplicative, but don't compare 9mm std. pressure to .40cal, which is by design high pressure to begin with (that's why there's no .40cal +P).

If you compare high quality 9mm+P (or even +P+ if your gun can hang) to .40, the ballistic gap narrows considerably. I flirted with a .40 (Glock 27), but traded it for a Glock 26 (same gun in 9mm). I shoot it better, enjoy it more, and will feel very well armed with my carry ammo once I settle on it (still experimenting).

 

[ugaarguy]

The legendary stopping power of the .45 caliber revolves around the 230 FMJ round. This is why I took it as the base for comparison to the 9mm. If the 9mm can expand to .65" then it is just as likely to neutralize a threat per the same argument of those who support the .45 FMJ 230 gr.

Yes, but that legend was borne in a time when everyone used ball or lead round nose ammo. When the rest of the world (save Argentina & Norway) was using .32 ACP, .380 ACP, or 9mm, and the US was using .45 ACP the legend was born and grew. Keep it apples to apples. Comparing FMJ in one caliber to JHP in another doesn't hold weight with me, nor many others here.

I'm not a champion of one round over the other. In other posts I have expressed respect and admiration for the .45 acp round. However, I think that 9 mm is not weak or dismal in comparison, either. It is also much more affordable to practice with. The zealots to whom I refer are those that frequently post they rather get hit with a sling shot than a 9mm. Those people are clearly diluted and lost in their own lies.

No one in this thread made the 9mm/slingshot comparison you refer to. In fact, if someone were to make such a comparison anywhere on this forum many voices of reason would respond revealing the error of their thought. However, that didn't happen in this thread. In fact no large bore proponents have made any unreasonable comments thus far in the thread. Yet you chose to say:

Don't listen to all the big bore zealots. Somewhere in all their rhetoric they lost their sense of reality.

With no reason, nor qualification of the statement, you chose to call all big bore proponents in this thread rhetorical zealots out of touch with reality. You accused others of being out of touch with reality in the same post where you compare 9mm JHP to .45 ACP FMJ; again with neither background, nor explanation. Don't use stereotypical comments not posted in this thread to justify your post. Debate what has actually been said.

 

[gallo]

ugaarguy,

You continue to miss the point. The comparison between the .45 round ball and the 9mm JHP was to show that if the .45 non-expansive bullet has enough stopping power, then it follows that the 9mm JHP which expands to .65" has the same or more stopping power. THE ARGUMENT WAS NEVER INTENDED TO COMPARE APPLES TO ORANGES! It was merely a point of reference from which to make the case for the 9mm's stopping power.

With regards to the rest of this post, which you have managed to convert into a personal vendetta, all I can say is if the shoe fits wear it. Perhaps you take my posts personally because my comments allude you. That's your problem. And remember, don't get lost in your own arguments. I did not call all big bore fans zealots (I like the .45 as much as the next guy), only those who consider the .45 acp the one and only man stopping bullet. Maybe they are not present in this thread, but they are bound to come as always.

It's late. I'll let you have the last word. Good night.

 

[ugaarguy]

I did not call all big bore fans zealots (I like the .45 as much as the next guy), only those who consider the .45 acp the one and only man stopping bullet

What you actually said was

Don't listen to all the big bore zealots. Somewhere in all their rhetoric they lost their sense of reality.

Maybe they are not present in this thread, but they are bound to come as always.

You keep saying they'll come, but they keep failing to appear (unless you think I'm one ).

You continue to miss the point. The comparison between the .45 round ball and the 9mm JHP was to show that if the .45 non-expansive bullet has enough stopping power, then it follows that the 9mm JHP which expands to .65" has the same or more stopping power.

I haven't missed any point. It's all about having a round that will penetrate deeply enough to get to hit the CNS and stop an attacker by incapacitating him. Expansion is a nice bonus giving room for error if your shot placement is off. Expansion alone does nothing. I'll get some penetration numbers on the HST rounds after I get some sleep.

Perhaps you take my posts personally because my comments allude you.

I can assure you they do not. I understand what you're saying, but rather than address my comments you dodge and redirect. Just discuss it with me without YELLING or making veiled insults of my intelligence. You made a somewhat inflammatory comment so I challenged you on it. The point wasn't to provoke a personal debate, but rather initiate a stimulating discussion which would add to the knowledge base contained in the forum.

 

[Harley Quinn]

I believe the 9mm is the leading hand gun/small submachine gun ammo .
So must be a lot of 9 mm shooters out there world wide.

 

[cookekdjr]

I was a 9mm critic for a long time. This was during a time where I regularly investigated and prosecuted shootings and regularly viewed autopsies where gunshot wounds were the cause of death. I noticed 357, 40 and 45 all performed about the same and all consistently outperformed 9mm. (I also noticed that hp's in handgun bullets rarely if ever expanded in human tissues, but that's another story).
After awhile I realized that 9mm performance varied widely, and that the better 9mm loads performed about as well as 357/40/45. Maybe not quite as spectacular, but well enough for me to switch to a G19 as my carry piece. The more run of the mill 9mm loads often perform about like 380, though, and I believe they contribute to the belief that 9mm is not enough. I have seen quite a bit of "caliber failure" when many of these loads were used.
In a nutshell, 9mm can perform like .357 or it can perform like .380, or somewhere in between. It all depends on what load you select.
-David

 

[Mulliganpaintdee]

so what load is best?

 

[gallo]

In my opinion a high quality 9mm JHP does the trick. It travels at 1250 to 1350 fps ensuring consistent expanison and delivering approximately 466 foot-lbs of energy.

See this link for a compariosn of several calibers:
http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/calloadgoshin.htm

 

[gallo]

http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/calloadgoshin.htm

 

[Fishman777]

Okay, now I'm confused...

Someone in this thread mentioned that it is common knowledge that fast bullets don't penetrate as well as slow bullets.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds wrong to me. I was always under the impression that the bullets that penetrated the best are those that don't fragment, have a high sectional density, and a high velocity.

 

[-v-]

9mm has been stopping people reliably for about 107 years. No reason to doubts its effectiveness now. But if you are that concerned with the lack of stopping power of a 9mm (ps 357 mag fires a 9mm bullet) why stop at a .45? Why not go all the way to a .50AE .

 

[cookekdjr]

so what load is best?

I have found there are a number that work really well.
Federal's BPLE 115gr +P+ load at 1300 fps does really well. It doesn't always do well in the lab, but in the last couple years a Metro Atlanta LE agency killed alot of bad guys with it. There is a similar load by Winchester that has worked well for an agency in Illinois.
The FBI agents I know have been really fond of the 147gr Hydra-shock load. I have no personal experience with it, although in a case I had the Winchester Ranger 147gr killed the victim in one shot.
NYPD has been very happy with the Speer Gold Dot 124gr +p. They have quite a few shootings and it has performed well.
I would carry any of the above without hesitation.
-David

 

[Mulliganpaintdee]

thank you for your reply David

 

[Jeffreii]

Fishman777:
It is mostly to do with the bullets strength. ALL bullets will come apart in the air if launched at a high enough velocity. Bullets are built for 2 objectives, penetration and expansion. Then there is the type of expansion. Uniformity and explosive/fragmentive. Velocity can change a uniform style bullet into an explosive style. Impact velocity has a lot to do with how the bullet will perform. Most handgun bullets designed for people are not designed as penetrators, though they usually are not designed as fragmenters ether (varmint bullets). If you launch one too fast, especially a non-bonded one, it will be 'explosive' and not penetrate, causing a big surface 'blowout' instead. Only if the bullet is designed to do its intended job of balancing penetration and expansion at the given impact velocity (which there are some with higher velocity, but they tend to not be optimal on a human-sized target) is a gain of velocity of any value, unless you are wanting the bullet to be more explosive.

For an example, a good deer bullet that would over penetrate a ground hog and not provide an "instant kill" in a standard velocity would be explosive on the same groundhog if launched at a very high velocity, assuming not so high the bullet would disintegrate in mid-air.

Unless you are using a solid and a good one at it, an increase in velocity is not going to always add penetration. Most handgun FMJ bullets are not all that well built for optimal penetration - they have round noses, soft lead, and thin, very cheaply-applied shells of copper that come right off easily. There are a little better than 'standard jacketed' methods that electroplate copper one the lead and would be better at penetrating compared to a jacketed one that lost its jacket, but they still have the copper thin and and the lead soft. Anyhow, they generally serve their purpose of needed penetration for the intended, unfortunate target.

However, keep in mind that most of the self defense bullets, and all for that matter, are very well designed these days and have quite a wide velocity range. Many good 9mm bullets can handle the increased velocity. You just dont want to use a "cheap" on and load it up real fast unless your target is far enough away to bring down the impact velocity. Most bullet manufacturers will list the range for each bullet. They know what they are talking about - they made the bullet. Bullet design and integrity has as much if not more to do with the effectiveness of a bullet than weight/velocity, assuming the latter two are reasonable in todays weaponry (no speed of light un-disintegratable .177 cal pellet for brown bear head shots)

 

[Jeffreii]

Obviously the 9mm is doable - there are plenty of corpses to justify that claim. I think bullet design and load up is just more important compared to other, bigger rounds.

so what load is best?

I would be interested in knowing the effects of 147 gr loads at close to but below the speed of sound vs lighter ones above it. Seems that it would add a little bit of a 'tumble' when it crosses the barrier, not to mention the increase in noise. I generally (though I have not done testing on it) side on a heavier bullet going 1100 fps or less that would give the same amount of energy as a lighter one going faster. Perhaps the difference would be insignificant, as the 357 mag being a good example. I am just speculating here...

 

[Fishman777]

Thanks!!

Thanks for the info, Jeffreii. My major reason for checking gun forums is to learn more about shooting. I appreciate your explanation.

 

[CoRoMo]

...40cal. will hit harder and kill "better"...

...will a 9mm consistently and reliably kill someone?

Dang. Had this been said in Social Situations, Jeff White would have slapped it down quicker than the brass exits the chamber.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

FOLKS!

I remember a video in the mid 1990's where the results of the US Army Research Laboratory were presented. All off the results from autopsies from police and criminal fatal shootings from around the United States had been fed to the researchers, and a Forensic Pathologist had reviewed the data. The same pathologist had been to many of the autopsies himself. His conclusions I remember even though I don't remember the year or his name.

The research was whether or not there was a handgun cartridge that would consistantly produce a "one shot stop" of an assailant. IF there was such a cartridge, then the United States military would adopt it. The conclusions were interesting.

1) The great number of successful "one shot stops" defined as, the assailant collapsed without returning fire after being hit in a face to face confrontation, would've been successful with a wide range of cartridges. Meaning, the brain or spine were hit, and the result was instantaneous. A .22 LR to a .44 mag, no difference, the subject would've collapsed.

2) Most lethal handgun encounters were NOT one-shot-stop situations. The research showed that most subjects, even when recieving mortal wounds that would result in death later (as opposed to incapacitating wounds that ended the fight) required multiple hits before incapacitation.

3) Incapacitation occurred when several rounds penetrated deep into the body cavity to reach the vital organs and spinal column at the back of the body cavity. Hollow point rounds did not consistently perform.

[This was in the 1990's, and projectile design has progressed since then, so lets not debate which bullet will or will not open?]

The conclusions from the research were:
Successful self defense with a handgun requires multiple hits on the assailant, so the recoil from the handgun is a factor, as the shooter must bring the handgun back on target. The bullet must have sufficient mass to reach the back of the assailant's torso, where the aorta, spine, etc. are postitioned, and often the bullet has to pass not only through the chest, but also through the assailant's arms, holding the assailant's handgun in front of the assailant while it is being fired at the defender. Hollow points should not be relied upon.

The recommendations were:
An accurate, moderate recoiling round, of at least 124 grains of weight, was the best option as placing multiple, accurate, rounds into the vital areas of an assailant as quickly as possible won handgun fights.

So the .45 Colt, .45 ACP, .44 Special, .40 S&W, and etc ALL have the weight and moderate recoil in many factory rounds, and if the bullets is equal or above the 124 grain mark then add the .38 Special, .38 Super, and the 9mm. NOTE the lack of the magnum rounds, as it was considered that the recoil was too great. BUT if you can control the recoil, then add the magnum of your choice to the list.

Missing from the list are: .380, .32 auto, .25 auto, .22 LR. etc. NOT that these wouldn't work, but it was concluded that the best chances for the fewest number of rounds reaching the vital areas in the least amount of time exluded them.

The bottom line is as many previously wrote..., put many projectiles on the target in vital areas as fast as possible!

LD

 

[Jaenak]

Fishman777:

I said that. I was speaking from an archery revelation I had. I was reading the research data accumulated by a profesional archer. He got together with some physicists and the physicists told him (showed him the math too) why a light and fast arrow never seems to hit as hard as a slow but heavy arrow. People have known this for a long time but haven't ever really figured out why, hence the reason why everyone uses a heavier arrow for elk than whitetails. The math showed that for every increase in projectile speed, the resistance met by the projectile when it hits the target was not proportional to the increase in velocity as one would think. The resistance met increased exponentially to the increase in velocity. A 375 grain projectile traveling 350 feet per second meets four times the amount of resistance as a 750 grain projectile traveling 125 feet per second. Since the speed of the 350 grain projectile is twice that of the 750 grain one, the resistance is four times that of the 750 grain projectile. Understand? That's the reason why a deer hunting bullet will achieve great penetration whereas a small but blazingly fast varmint bullet will pretty much just explode on impact, not penetrate hardly at all but still kill the critter. Remember, bullets kill via shock, arrows kill via penetration. The reason the small but blazingly fast varmint bullet behaves the way it does is because the projectile is so much smaller and faster, the resistance is WAY higher and the momentum is really low, thus not high enough to overcome the resistance and so it doesn't really penetrate and it expands almost on impact. That's what I was reffering to.

Ugaarguy:

He wasn't insulting your intelligence or any other such nonsense, he was saying that if the 45acp FMJ kills really nice, than by comparison, if you get a 9mm JHP of the same weight, it should do just as well since the weight would be the same (if you got similar weight bullets), the expansion of the 9mm JHP would cause the dimensions of the bullet to be the same and the "umph" behind the bullet would be the same. Since I asked if a 9mm would work, he answered that way by saying a 45acp works well, that much we know, so if you got a 9mm JHP (which would match stats with a similar weight 45acp), then yes the 9mm would work too. And therefore, anyone that says "a 9mm is a 45 set on stun" is incorrect and out to lunch on that opinion. If you're insulted by that conclusion than perhaps you need to put down your 1911 for a little while and reaquaint yourself with the realities of the 9mm. Please, the whole reason for the argument in this thread is because of your reaction, not what he said. I would like to ask that you be quiet and be nice because I specifically said I didn't want this to turn into a 9mm versus 45 debate and if you won't knock it off, then I'll have to ask that the mods lock this thread because the thread would have been hijacked and unsalvagable.

 

[Edward Nigma]

9mm will stop an attacker. Claudine Longet shot Spider Sabich to death with one shot from a .22.

 

[gallo]

Well said, Jeanak.

 

[ugaarguy]

Jaenak;
Ugaarguy:

He wasn't insulting your intelligence or any other such nonsense,

Jaenek, Gallo said:

Perhaps you take my posts personally because my comments allude you. That's your problem. And remember, don't get lost in your own arguments.

By assuming that his comments alluded me Gallo was questioning my ability to comprehend what he was saying. That is an insult to my intelligence. I've not insulted anyone's intelligence or intellect in this thread. I've attacked the argument, not the person. Please take a moment to reflect on this.

he was saying that if the 45acp FMJ kills really nice, than by comparison, if you get a 9mm JHP of the same weight, it should do just as well since the weight would be the same (if you got similar weight bullets), the expansion of the 9mm JHP would cause the dimensions of the bullet to be the same and the "umph" behind the bullet would be the same.

Let me be the bearer of reality once again. The heaviest bullets that a 9x19 will fire weigh 147 grains. Any heavier and you'll exceed the cartridge overall length maximum because you can't seat bullets very deep in a 9x19 without serious risks of excessive pressure. The standard bullet weight for the 45 ACP is 230 grains. You aren't going to get similar weight bullets in the two rounds without going to exotic ammo in one or both.

Since I asked if a 9mm would work, he answered that way by saying a 45acp works well, that much we know, so if you got a 9mm JHP (which would match stats with a similar weight 45acp), then yes the 9mm would work too.

As stated above you aren't going to get similar weight bullets in the two rounds.

And therefore, anyone that says "a 9mm is a 45 set on stun" is incorrect and out to lunch on that opinion.

I'm in full agreement there. All I asked was that Gallo, and anyone else reading the thread for that matter, compare like projectiles to like projectiles for the sake of parity.

If you're insulted by that conclusion than perhaps you need to put down your 1911 for a little while and reaquaint yourself with the realities of the 9mm.

As stated above I'm not insulted by the conclusion, but rather that Gallo questioned by ability to comprehend his simple statements. I'm fully acquainted with the capabilities of the 9mm. Perhaps you missed my first post, posted before Gallo had even posted in this thread, where I said:

I can't remember who posted it or in which forum here, but someone made an astute observation on this topic. "The 9mm vs. .45 ACP debate has been going on for nearly 100 years now - and it's not for lack of corpses to examine."

A few posts later I said

However, as I said earlier, both have proven that they work quite well over the last nearly 100 years. Find a gun and cartridge combination that fits you well and which you shoot well. Don't get hung up on caliber. I like my 45 ACP 1911s, but I also have several of those archaic six shot .38 Special revolvers, and a 9mm auto. I don't feel underarmed with any of them.

The emoticon was used to try to lighten the mood. I've hardly been knocking the 9mm as you can see from the posts I've had to quote to refresh your memory.

Please, the whole reason for the argument in this thread is because of your reaction, not what he said.

Once again, I've only debated the information and opinion given. I've not insinuated that anyone else lacked the mental capability to grasp my statements as others have done. I must disagree with you.

I would like to ask that you be quiet and be nice because I specifically said I didn't want this to turn into a 9mm versus 45 debate

Again, I have been nice. I've not yelled, and I've not insulted anyone. I've not tried to turn this into a 9mm vs. 45 debate either. As you can see from my previous posts in this thread I've taken a very middle ground expressing the opinion that most handgun calibers will get the job done just as well as the others. I simply asked that folks compare like projectiles to like projectiles. If you have a problem with this I'm sorry. If you have anything else to say to me send it to me in a PM so we don't drag your thread off topic.

Back To Jaenek's Original Question.
Hopefully everyone here has seen from the various comments that 9mm (9x19, 9mm Parabellum / Luger / NATO) is indeed a viable defensive caliber. Although it fires much lighter bullets than the .45 ACP the much higher velocities at which they're fired combined with their narrower cross section generally leads to excellent penetration. With modern controlled expansion jacketed hollow points these 9mm projectiles expand reliably providing some room for error when shot placement is affected by the stress of shooting to defend your life or that of another.

 

[Jaenak]

I'm not quite sure what he meant by not getting lost in your own arguments but I took "allude you" as having a more mundane meaning. More along the lines of distraction or misunderstanding than stupid. That however was just my interpretation of the message. He may have meant to be hostile with the things he said but I still think that the way you took it to mean was at least part of the problem. Albeit, not the entire problem though. I do thank you though for maintaining proper demeanor in the face of a recognized insult. I have seen many users set off in a total blinding rage about something like this. I apologize if I sound like I'm trying to come off as a moderator. I can see that might be the case. Please understand that's not what I'm trying to do because I'm NOT a moderator and pretending to be one is just rude.

Bullet weight point taken. The two indeed do not line up exactly side by side just as you said. I believe however that the point he was getting at though is that if the one works, then the other will work too if selected properly even if it is just a bit lighter in the "umph" department. I always told my dad when he would get started taking about this or that rifle round that "When you're getting hit by a ford explorer, an extra bag of dog food in the back end isn't really gonna make too much difference." That was an assumed point many (but not all) recognize and was more than likely present in that comparison.

I didn't realize it was you that posted those two replies. Those were two of my favorite replies in this thread. Now that you mention .38 special revolvers, what caliber did the cowboys of old use? I've always tried to find the ballistics of those kind of rounds and compare it with modern rounds.

 

[novaDAK]

If the argument is that 9mm JHP is at least as effective as .45 FMJ, then I don't think there would be a problem with me saying that .45 JHP beats any 9mm then

That said, I own five 9x19mm pistols, and only one .45 (and one .40) but I'm looking for a second .45 currently for variety

 

[ugaarguy]

I apologize if I sound like I'm trying to come off as a moderator. I can see that might be the case. Please understand that's not what I'm trying to do because I'm NOT a moderator and pretending to be one is just rude.

Jaenak, you did the right thing. If you talk with Oleg and his staff of volunteer Mods/Admins their vision for the forum is that it be self moderating. Things got a bit heated up, but you and several others kept your cool and everyone talked it out without having to get a moderator involved. Somewhat heated discussion is generally accepted here as long as personal insults and other such unpleasantries aren't brought into the mix. It's that last bit that usually causes problems though .

Now that you mention .38 special revolvers, what caliber did the cowboys of old use? I've always tried to find the ballistics of those kind of rounds and compare it with modern rounds.

Give me a little time to get my reloading manual and get you some numbers. Anecdotally, the basic historical context of the push to .45 ACP happened when the .38 Long Colt chambered service revolvers of the day wouldn't stop the Philippine Morro warriors effectively during the Spanish-American War. (Remember that .38 Long Colt is a black powder cartridge pre-dating the .38 S&W Special.) The desire was to return to a big bore cartridge with similar ballistics to the old .45 Colt cavalry round which was a known man stopper. It was also known for its capability to take down a horse if need be - a reality of warfare involving cavalry.

.45 Colt, .44-40, .32-20, and others were amongst the common handgun rounds of the old west. I'll get you some numbers on those and hopefully a few others here shortly.