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9mm insufficient? 
Has he been hit with one COM???
Has he been hit with one COM???
9mm insufficient?
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Peetmoss
Member
IMNSHO it doesn't really matter what service caliber you use. If you don't sever the spinal cord or destroy the brain there is always a chance of fire being returned.
twoblink
Member
Hmm..
I have this strange feeling, this topic was discussed at length at a poker table at some point in history, and the 4 men concluded "We need something that will take the guy out, 1 shot!!"
And thus, the .50BMG came to be
Yes, there are 1 shot stops... if the caliber is big enough... Something like an H-bomb, you almost don't have to aim!!
I have this strange feeling, this topic was discussed at length at a poker table at some point in history, and the 4 men concluded "We need something that will take the guy out, 1 shot!!"
And thus, the .50BMG came to be
Yes, there are 1 shot stops... if the caliber is big enough... Something like an H-bomb, you almost don't have to aim!!
GeorgeH
Member
Caliber size and bullet type is meaningless unless you can deliver it accurately.
So shot placement is key.
A 22 in the eye will be more effective then a 45 to the thigh.
The first rule in a gun fight is to bring a gun. No one questions the ability of a 45 ACP to stop an attacker. But if you can't or won't carry it, then it is useless. The best gun to defend you is the one in your hand. Learn to use it properly, and it should serve you well.
About four times a year, I teach a CCW class. I tell my students to first select their back-up/"always" gun first. The reason is to lower the pressure on them to select their primary firearm and to get them into the habit of always having a gun on their person.
Once they have developed the habit of carring a firearm on them always, they will have a better understanding of their own particular carry needs. This will help them select the correct primary defensive pistol that meets their needs (and not mine, some gun writer, or gun store clerk).
As to caliber selection, I tell them that the defensive use of a firearm is different that selecting a firearm for target shooting or hunting. If they can fire 2 shots into a 10 inch paper plate at 10 feet in 1 second, then the caliber is acceptable.
So shot placement is key.
A 22 in the eye will be more effective then a 45 to the thigh.
The first rule in a gun fight is to bring a gun. No one questions the ability of a 45 ACP to stop an attacker. But if you can't or won't carry it, then it is useless. The best gun to defend you is the one in your hand. Learn to use it properly, and it should serve you well.
About four times a year, I teach a CCW class. I tell my students to first select their back-up/"always" gun first. The reason is to lower the pressure on them to select their primary firearm and to get them into the habit of always having a gun on their person.
Once they have developed the habit of carring a firearm on them always, they will have a better understanding of their own particular carry needs. This will help them select the correct primary defensive pistol that meets their needs (and not mine, some gun writer, or gun store clerk).
As to caliber selection, I tell them that the defensive use of a firearm is different that selecting a firearm for target shooting or hunting. If they can fire 2 shots into a 10 inch paper plate at 10 feet in 1 second, then the caliber is acceptable.
JeepDriver
Member
Amen.
I can rember where I read this or who said it. And I'm paraphrasing also. But I though he made a good point.
A women asked why I carried a gun," Was I expecting trouble? "
I responded "If I was expecting trouble I would have bought a rifle"
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DaveD
Member
9 is fine with the right ammo. Glaser or Corbon come to mind
faustulus
Member
shoot him until he stops, that's what you have the extra rounds and quicker follow up for.
twoblink
Member
I do want to remind everybody of the first and second rule of a gun fight, (even before we start talking about calibers)
#1 Have a gun!
#2 Bring the gun!!
Any caliber in hand, is better then any caliber in the safe!! So bringing your gun along is the most important..
I'm still not a believer that 9mm is enough if I have other choices...
#1 Have a gun!
#2 Bring the gun!!
Any caliber in hand, is better then any caliber in the safe!! So bringing your gun along is the most important..
I'm still not a believer that 9mm is enough if I have other choices...
So what if you do end up using a 380 or a 38 special or 9mm Makarov?
I'm inclined to think that with a 9mmx19, the bullets will penetrate far enough to get to the vitals no matter what kind you are using, except maybe certain angles with the frangibles.
But what about the smaller calibers? Would you be better off with FMJ's to make sure that they get where they are going, or with jHP to tear a bigger hole?
Or are they entirely useless?
I currently have three 9mm's, two of which I can shoot quite well. I would like to get another handgun before too long. It will mostly be a plinker, like the others, but like the others it will probably get carried too.
Should I go bigger?
Would I still be reasonably safe if I go smaller?
Or maybe I should consider getting a registered Thompson....
I'm inclined to think that with a 9mmx19, the bullets will penetrate far enough to get to the vitals no matter what kind you are using, except maybe certain angles with the frangibles.
But what about the smaller calibers? Would you be better off with FMJ's to make sure that they get where they are going, or with jHP to tear a bigger hole?
Or are they entirely useless?
I currently have three 9mm's, two of which I can shoot quite well. I would like to get another handgun before too long. It will mostly be a plinker, like the others, but like the others it will probably get carried too.
Should I go bigger?
Would I still be reasonably safe if I go smaller?
Or maybe I should consider getting a registered Thompson....
DeltaElite
Member
Aint 9mm just a target load anyway?
It's placement and penetration.
Of course heavy and large diameter don't hurt either.
It's placement and penetration.
Of course heavy and large diameter don't hurt either.
Skipped to the end...
... I'm sure I've read all the above before!
Are the 40/45/357 S&M "better" than the 9x19? Of course they are!
Do I still prefer the 9x19? You bet I do!
I can do more with less. When I use more, I do less... really don't care what anybody else can do/has done with whatever.
... I'm sure I've read all the above before!
Are the 40/45/357 S&M "better" than the 9x19? Of course they are!
Do I still prefer the 9x19? You bet I do!
I can do more with less. When I use more, I do less... really don't care what anybody else can do/has done with whatever.
Baron Holbach
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I second Peetmoss's analysis.
Mute
Member
Here's my bottom line. Whatever will stack more of the chips on your side. A .45 makes a bigger hole so that's a plus. But if you can't handle the recoil as well as a 9mm than it's a minus. Test your equipment and choose accordingly. If you will do, the equipment probably will also.
In an attempt to decide on the best caliber I have decided to shoot myself with one each of:
9mm
.40S&W
.45ACP
I will let you all know which one hurts the most.
Is I am only 5'11" and 220lbs I am not big enough to shoot myself with each bullet weight and type.
What do you guys recomend.
HS/LD
9mm
.40S&W
.45ACP
I will let you all know which one hurts the most.
Is I am only 5'11" and 220lbs I am not big enough to shoot myself with each bullet weight and type.
What do you guys recomend.
HS/LD
Well there are too many variables in goats, how about grape Jello-0?
If you shoot yourself with a 9mm first, you may conclude that it hurts the most because the .40 and .45 will come after the endorphine dump?
9mm MUST be insufficient... there can't be any other reason why those shooting competitions have MAJOR power factors right? (It can't be to make the .45 ACP look good, is it?)
Really, some guy on another forum (Can't remember now) said something to the effect of... "We spend countless hours debating the smallest of things and often times overlook those which matter the most."
If you shoot yourself with a 9mm first, you may conclude that it hurts the most because the .40 and .45 will come after the endorphine dump?
9mm MUST be insufficient... there can't be any other reason why those shooting competitions have MAJOR power factors right? (It can't be to make the .45 ACP look good, is it?)
Really, some guy on another forum (Can't remember now) said something to the effect of... "We spend countless hours debating the smallest of things and often times overlook those which matter the most."
No, it is really way compensate for the .45 ACP being harder to shoot quickly and accurately than the 9x19. Some may brag on these forums that they can shoot the .45 (or .40 or 357 Sig) just as quickly and accurately as they can the 9x19, but sure want their handicap when there's money on the line.
ACP
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This is fun, so here' s my .02.
I carry a .38 snubnose in the right front pocket most of the time, so a 9mm would be a step up and would be "sufficent."
But when I want to "step up" to a belt gun, I go with a .357 magnum or a .45 ACP. Why? A couple of reasaons.
1. Shot placement is nice, but what if you don't get to choose? What if the BG offers limited exposure, either in time or person?
He's moving? Behind cover? The something bigger (.45) or much faster (.357) is, IMHO, a better choice.
2. Hi-caps don't make a lot of difference, unless you plan on being part of a protracted civilian affair. So, you can plan on one or two, maybe three shots. If someone said you could swing a 12 oz. hammer or a 16 oz. hammer three times to pound in a nail, what would you choose?
3. Having a CCW on you and reliability come before shot placement, IMHO. That's where .357 shines, I believe.
Anyway, let the discussion continue....
I carry a .38 snubnose in the right front pocket most of the time, so a 9mm would be a step up and would be "sufficent."
But when I want to "step up" to a belt gun, I go with a .357 magnum or a .45 ACP. Why? A couple of reasaons.
1. Shot placement is nice, but what if you don't get to choose? What if the BG offers limited exposure, either in time or person?
He's moving? Behind cover? The something bigger (.45) or much faster (.357) is, IMHO, a better choice.
2. Hi-caps don't make a lot of difference, unless you plan on being part of a protracted civilian affair. So, you can plan on one or two, maybe three shots. If someone said you could swing a 12 oz. hammer or a 16 oz. hammer three times to pound in a nail, what would you choose?
3. Having a CCW on you and reliability come before shot placement, IMHO. That's where .357 shines, I believe.
Anyway, let the discussion continue....
The major/minor distinction in shooting sports is an unfortunate one. Perhaps an ideal situation would be to better reflect the reality that the "major" calibers are harder to shoot well, but the "minor" calibers don't hit the target as hard. Gaming should perhaps require factory level ammo loadings, (none of this barely cycling the slide gamesmanship with the lightest bullet possible), and the caliber requirement just be called "service caliber," i.e. 9mm and above.
The direct way to level the playing field between calibers is by using steel targets at various distances rather than paper/cardboard. This target system would still "penalize" the larger bores' poorer recovery time on marginal hits or misses but also "penalize" the 9mm/.38 Super because at times they lack authority with just one hit COM on steel plates (and bowling pins in my experience), thus requiring those fast follow-up shots that the .45 or 10mm probably won't need with a decent hit.
It is interesting to note that the fastest time in the last IDPAs was posted in SSP by a Glockster shooting 9mm. Rob Leatham came in second overall and first in custom with a 1911 .45ACP, a whole three hundredths off the overall winning pace. It's never the caliber, it's the shooter, but IDPA doesn't account for the tactical need of the 9mm sometimes requiring a double-dose to throw the same relative amount of lead to get the job done.
I "abandoned" the 9mm when I started realizing that I could shoot .45ACP nearly as fast and I felt smoother doing so. I happen to like the trigger, handling, and recoil characteristics of all steel single-stack 1911A1 .45s as I am a big guy and manage the recoil well. I am not stupid enough to think my experience is transferable to everyone else.
The direct way to level the playing field between calibers is by using steel targets at various distances rather than paper/cardboard. This target system would still "penalize" the larger bores' poorer recovery time on marginal hits or misses but also "penalize" the 9mm/.38 Super because at times they lack authority with just one hit COM on steel plates (and bowling pins in my experience), thus requiring those fast follow-up shots that the .45 or 10mm probably won't need with a decent hit.
It is interesting to note that the fastest time in the last IDPAs was posted in SSP by a Glockster shooting 9mm. Rob Leatham came in second overall and first in custom with a 1911 .45ACP, a whole three hundredths off the overall winning pace. It's never the caliber, it's the shooter, but IDPA doesn't account for the tactical need of the 9mm sometimes requiring a double-dose to throw the same relative amount of lead to get the job done.
I "abandoned" the 9mm when I started realizing that I could shoot .45ACP nearly as fast and I felt smoother doing so. I happen to like the trigger, handling, and recoil characteristics of all steel single-stack 1911A1 .45s as I am a big guy and manage the recoil well. I am not stupid enough to think my experience is transferable to everyone else.
Admiral Thrawn
Member
Down at the range, I mostly practice with 9x19mm and .45ACP.
What i've found is that the .45ACP has a slower bullet, but fires much more smoothly and is less "snappy." This has resulted in me being able to shoot better with it than the 9x19mm, which I find I have a tendency to shoot a little to the left.
The added recoil of the .45ACP is compensated for by this smooth firing. Overall, I find the .45ACP to be a very well balanced round, amd certainly leaves much bigger holes in the paper than 9x19mm.
The only downsides of the .45ACP compared with the 9x19mm are that it is larger, resulting in increased weight and reduced magazine capacity, and that it is much more expensive to shoot.
However, if I was using a good quality JHP 9x19mm round, it should do the job of self-defence quite nicely, but the favorable characteristics of the .45ACP would make it a very good choice also, if you don't mind paying the extra ammunition costs.
What i've found is that the .45ACP has a slower bullet, but fires much more smoothly and is less "snappy." This has resulted in me being able to shoot better with it than the 9x19mm, which I find I have a tendency to shoot a little to the left.
The added recoil of the .45ACP is compensated for by this smooth firing. Overall, I find the .45ACP to be a very well balanced round, amd certainly leaves much bigger holes in the paper than 9x19mm.
The only downsides of the .45ACP compared with the 9x19mm are that it is larger, resulting in increased weight and reduced magazine capacity, and that it is much more expensive to shoot.
However, if I was using a good quality JHP 9x19mm round, it should do the job of self-defence quite nicely, but the favorable characteristics of the .45ACP would make it a very good choice also, if you don't mind paying the extra ammunition costs.
I've never competed, but I think that you could set up blocks of stone or iron that a .44 Magnum would knock out of the way, but a .45 ACP or 10mm would jitter it a little...
Then again, is there specific rationale for choosing the density of the IDPA or other orgainization's targets that one has to knockdown?
I like the .45 for sentimental reasons and the fact that it makes holes that appear a little bigger.
Then again, is there specific rationale for choosing the density of the IDPA or other orgainization's targets that one has to knockdown?
I like the .45 for sentimental reasons and the fact that it makes holes that appear a little bigger.
Woodchuck
Member
I have heard it said that a 9 may expand but a .45 will never shrink.
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