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9mm insufficient?

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by twoblink, Jan 17, 2003.

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  1. twoblink

    twoblink Member

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    No, this is not 9mm bashing; just read an article in Handgun magazine, can't remember what it's called but it was something like "When they won't go down " or something close to that; talking about how the one shot stop is a lie; and how some perps take multiple hits and still manage to return fire..

    In there, (paraphrasing) I'm sure someone with the magazine will give the quote; but it said that you should stay away from insufficient stopping power rounds like 9mm and 380.

    Again, not my words, don't shoot the messenger!!

    He lists .45ACP, .40SW, and .357Mag as better selections..

    OK people, keep the flames to a minimum, and let's DISCUSS this..
     
  2. Helio

    Helio Member

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    Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.
     
  3. Michigun

    Michigun Member

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    Sounds like the article I just read my Mr. Cooper...

    I think it may have been misunderstood however, that article was meant as to look back at the 1911 .45ACP as it was back in the day.

    He was talking about the 45 -v- the 9mm & 380 a that time in history.

    I know Mr. Cooper is a "45 guy", but I also know that he understands that things have changed for the better now days with the "other" calibers.
     
  4. Hkmp5sd

    Hkmp5sd Member

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    Yep.Yep.Yep.

    There is one documented case of a doper taking 49 9mm hits. without slowing down. Obviously none were immediately fatal. He was finished with a 12 gauge slug.

    In the '86 Miami shootout, Platt was hit 12 times. The first hit was a 9mm round fired by Agent Dove which, "hit his right upper arm, just above the inside crook of the elbow. The bullet passed under the bone, through the deltoid, triceps and teres major muscles and severed the brachial arteries and veins. The bullet exited the inner side of his upper arm near the armpit, penetrated his chest between the fifth and sixth ribs, and passed almost completely through the right lung before stopping. The bullet came to rest about one inch short of penetrating the wall of the heart."

    The doctor performing the autopsy believes that Platt's first wound was unsurvivable, and was the primary injury responsible for Platt's death.

    He was a walking deadman that managed to kill two FBI agents and severely wound five others before dying.

    Placement is 99% of the battle.
     
  5. JPM70535

    JPM70535 Member

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    Without enrageing 9mm advocates I have to believe that all the reports of BGs being hit multiple times COM and still continuing aggressive actions have to have some merit. Not that there is anything basically wrong with the caliber, certainly many GGs and BGs have died from 9mm hits.

    I can't think of any ammo effectiveness tests that show any 9mm round to be superior in terms of one shot stops, The most effective always comes up the same, 357 mag. 125 gr HP.

    The argument can be made that using modern 9mm high performance expanding HPs, it is superior to 45ACP. These arguments are usually based on the 45 using 230 gr ball.
    When the 45 is stoked with lighter high performance HPs the numbers swing back in favor of the old warhorse.

    Over the years I have carried most very caliber as a backup or off duty weapon. I never felt seriously outgunned ,(NAA 22lr excluded) however given the choice I will still go with my 45, it just makes me feel more secure. JMHO


    THE SECOND AMENDMENT GUARANTEES ALL THE OTHERS!!!
     
  6. Baron Holbach

    Baron Holbach Member

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  7. Marko Kloos

    Marko Kloos Moderator Emeritus

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    There are plenty of documented instant DRTs with .22s and .25s, and there are equally plenty documented incidents where BGs were not stopped by multiple COM hits from 9mm, .40, .45ACP, and even 12 gauge slugs. No caliber is an instant death ray, and no caliber is "useless" or "feeble". Even a tiny .25ACP pill can do you in right there, if that bullet intersects with something vital.

    Caliber wars are almost religious discussions, and you're no more likely to convert people to a different religion than to a different caliber preference.

    Personally, I think 9mm is just fine for defense. It's low recoiling, which means faster follow-up shots, and it's cheap, which translates into more practice. With modern bullet designs, I doubt that there's a big effectiveness difference between any of the current major defensive calibers. Shot placement is ten times more important than caliber.
     
  8. krept

    krept Member

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    I think caliber wars are fun and I haven't seen many here yet.

    I'm thinking that many of the people that formed their opinions that 9mm is a poor stopper did so before the modern HPs came out... or formed their opinions based on teachers that did this. Either that or they are forced to compare FMJs, in which case the .45 should naturally make a slightly larger wound channel (and I don't buy into the 147gr 9mm yawing, sorry).

    I mean if you take away the modern bullets's diameter, weight and velocity and just look at the average expansion/penetration numbers from 9mm to .45 ACP, the data are very very hard to separate.

    The main reason I like the .45 is because that's what I grew up with.
     
  9. Neal Bloom

    Neal Bloom Member

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    Hate to sound like a borken record: Shot placement!
     
  10. cslinger

    cslinger Member

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    Carrying a defensive handgun is all about defense. It is a trade off in power and accuracy for comfort and always have utility. No handgun is a good man stopper in a strict sense.

    Shotguns and rifles are the way to go if you are expecting a fight and even they are not going to drop everybody all the time immediately.

    I am a .45/.357 guy at heart. Comes more from the history, nostagia and fun I have shooting them then raw "One Shot Stop" numbers. I also use 9mm, .38 and .40 caliber for defense and don't feel any less armed as I use very high quality ammo that should at least buy me enough time to run away.

    It is all about playing the odds and since the odds don't favor ever actually pointing your gun at somebody in anger much less using it and the fact that the chances are 9mm will be just fine should the event occur you should be just fine. I mean statistically speaking what are the chances you have to shoot the doped up, uber nazi, ninja, wearing body armor. Pretty low. Chances are it will be some scumbag who picked your house because they thought it was empty and as soon as that handgun swings their way they are done.

    Now I understand that we should all prepare for the worst but If we let ourselves get caught up in over preparing, pretty soon we are carrying radios to call in artillery strikes and having belt feds in the trunk of the car.

    Remember most police officers never fire their gun in anger during their career.

    Both 9mm and .45 hardball have been killing people for around a century now and they are both still very popular choices. If one was a clear winner the other would be obsolete by now.

    JMHO
    Chris
     
  11. JohnK

    JohnK Member

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    You can find horror stories of bad guys taking multiple hits from most if not all handgun calibers.

    Shot placement and good ammo are important. Which would you rather have Corbon 115gr JHP 9mm or 45 ACP FMJ?

    Of course the 12ga Rem 870 trumps them all. :D
     
  12. seeker_two

    seeker_two Member

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    ....shot placement....
     
  13. 10-Ring

    10-Ring Member

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    The 9 mm does have some practical advantages for many shooters. If "shot placement" is key, then practice, practice, practice is paramount to accomplish this, the 9mm is just less expensive to shoot. The more you shoot, the greater chances of achieving proper "shot placement".
     
  14. Handy

    Handy Guest

    I don't think there is any arguement that 9mm is BETTER than .40 or .45, but many believe it is in the same ballpark. 9mm is a major step up from .380 or even standard .38 Special.

    With 9mm, in all weights and bullet designs, penetration is not the problem-almost all loads go deep. The bigger bullets mainly have an advantage in wound diameter, but not a great one if the 9mm slug expands properly. But the most internal wound area is going to come from penetration depth, not diameter. I would prefer FMJ even to a HP that only goes in 3 or 4 inches, like a .380 might.

    I like my 9mm pistols. 9mm is the most reliable feeding auto cartridge. It is very accurate and easy to shoot and doesn't put undue wear on your pistol. It's total power may be near the acceptable minimum, but it still makes that minimum. When the cartridge you shoot encourages reliability and accuracy with reasonable lethality, it's a good bet for defense. The +P hollowpoints I've carried have never made me feel like I wasn't armed to the teeth.

    Would a .45 HP have done significantly more damage to Platt with the same placement? Would the placement have been as good?
     
  15. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    Yup.
     
  16. Mike Irwin

    Mike Irwin Member

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    Shot placement COMBINED with adequate penetration.

    You need both.
     
  17. Fed168

    Fed168 Member

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    All of the above. Handguns are a crap shoot anyway.
     
  18. KMKeller

    KMKeller Member

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    Fed, you folks carry the smith .45 correct?
     
  19. stans

    stans Member

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    Shot placement is the most important factor. A 22 long rifle through an eye socket is going to be far more effective than a 454 Casull hit to a pinkey finger. Be very careful of what you read in magazines. These guys get paid to submit articles, regardless of accuracy or veracity.

    Jeff Cooper was and is a great man. In his day, the 9mm was available in 115 or 124 grain ball loads and the 45 ACP was available in 230 grain ball loads. Between these, I would take the 45 ACP. Today, with high performance hollowpoints, there is little real difference in effectiveness.

    Chuck Taylor touts the 45 ACP, or at least he used to. All of his articles said the 45 ACP was the ultimate round and there was none better, not even the 357 Magnum could come close to the 45 ACP. Unless his article was about 357 Magnum's, then this caliber was the best.

    I stopped subscribing to Peterson's Handguns many years ago due to such writings.
     
  20. USGuns

    USGuns Member

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  21. dev_null

    dev_null Member

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    Gee, too bad Carbon-15s have a rep for unreliability. :D

    -0-
     
  22. Smoke

    Smoke Member

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    I'll be the first to agree that shot placement makes the biggest difference.

    But after that the bigger the bullet the less critical shot placement becomes. (envision a cannonball at this point)

    A .45acp just allows me to have a greater margin of error. I'm sure if I ever get into a lethal force encounter my shots are not going to be as accurate as I am on the range.
     
  23. Mikul

    Mikul Member

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    Every shooting is it's own beast. It's difficult to infer anything from a single shooting because all of the factors are unknown.

    I still remember hearing the story from a police officer who shot a man with a 12-gauge slug. They had to run and tackle to guy afterward to make the arrest. I also remember the story on PBS of the man who was shot 27 times by 7.62x39 and ran around for an hour helping his buddies in Vietnam.

    These make the 9mm vs 45 debate seem even more silly. Any round that will consistently go in one side of a man and out the other is powerful enough. Everything else is just shot placement. Stop studying ballistic tables and pick up Gray's Anatomy.
     
  24. KMKeller

    KMKeller Member

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    Ahhhh Mikul. The voice of reason and logic. Good post... and I have a copy of Gray's Anatomy...
     
  25. TheActor

    TheActor Member

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    I used to sponser a guy who was shot in the head with a .45. The slug ripped his ear up and glanced off the bone.
     
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