9mm insufficient?

[Blackhawk]

"Sufficient" is relative. I have sufficient means to buy most of what I want. Not even Bill Gates has sufficient means to buy everything I want.

To maximize the effectiveness of what you have, shot placement and angle of incidence are key. Shooting a BG in the eye with a .22 will do the job as long as it's from the front.

 

[Jim Higginbotham]

Sure, a 9mm is insuficient. If the goal is to instantly incapacitate a dangerous human attacker all handgun rounds - including the .454 Casul and the .480 Ruger - are insufficient, unless you hit the brain or upper part of the spine. Most rifles and shotguns are better but still not perfect.

Is there a difference in effectiveness...sure but it is not more important than where the bullet strikes or what mental/physical condition the subject is in.

The important thing to remember is that a pistol is a pitiful puny popgun - shoot like they vote in Chicago: Early and Often!

Food for thought,
Jim H.

 

[Climb14er]

I have both 1911 .45 acp's and 9mm's

and whiile I like both calibers, my CCW is a HK USPc 9mm with 124 gr. +P Gold Dot Proload.

Why the 9mm? It's 100% reliable in the HK, and the Proload rounds are extremely fast, expansion 'proofed' and very deadly.

The 9mm rounds of today are far more effective than rounds 10-20 years ago. The 9mm is also very easy to control for follow up and multiple shots. Remember, I'm not an expert shooter but I do practice with both .45 and 9mm. The 9mm, I practice with more.

The .45 ACP is a huge bullet that I happen to have a fondness for. However, my 1911's are much heavier in weight (to carry) than the HK and are just a little bit more accurate.

Personally speaking, I would NOT want to get hit by a Proload 124 gr. +P Gold Dot round. This is why I carry the 'bulletproof' 9mm.

BTW, I could have purchased a .45 acp HK compact but I wanted the 9mm. In town, in the home, in the mountains and backcountry, 21 rounds of 9mm in the 2 mags is enough protection that I'll be needing.

 

[BerettaNut92]

I can't even be sure with a .45. To be sure, I bring Bambi (my Benelli) or Daisy (my M1A).

.45 and 9mm are the same, as far as I'm concered. Neither are good enough. Fun, but not good enough.

Handguns: Shot placement, shot placement. Failure to stop! Shot placement!

 

[Wildalaska]

Enough! Enough!:banghead:

WildarentyouallgettingtiredofthissubjectAlaska

 

[charleym3]

Someone said it on the first page. 9mm is cheap and cheap ammo means more practice which equals bettter shooting. Most frequently I carry a .38 with standard factory loads. I have absolute faith in it because I know that I can shoot it well.

 

[agtman]

"9mm insufficient?"



Shot placement into a vital organ with a 9mm is critical, since even pointblank hits with that little .355 slug can be insufficient to stop a determined attacker, as seen here for example:

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=63621

Shot placement with the .40/10mm & above calibers is important also, but these calibers seem more forgiving of "near misses" into a vital organ area - with the "knockdown" energy transfer (i.e., ft-lbs) of the larger calibers and the heavier bullets often being sufficient to cause rapid, if not instant, incapacitation. With the 9mm, you're more or less rolling the dice. (Hopefully, you've got a rabbit's foot in your pocket. )

In addition to training for accurate shot placement, practice double-taps. Once you become reasonably proficient w/ d.ts., try doing triple taps if you can safely control muzzle rise.

The shocking-power of well-placed d.ts. is sometimes underestimated, but getting several accurate shots into a vital area fast increases the probability of immediate incapacitiation.

 

[BHP9]

Now I will throw everyone a curve ball. In some cases the 9mm even with ball ammo is better than the .45acp

In shootouts and even more dramatically in warfare often enemy soldiers are not just standing around in a classic shoot me at close range pose. The 9mm with ball ammo is a superior round in penetration and when the enemy soldier is standing sideways and you have to shoot through his arm to get to his vitals the 9mm will more than likely penetrate all the way. The slower .45 slug especially as the range increases really starts to slow down.

Soldiers hiding behind wooden doors and even street parked autos are a lot safer from fire coming from a .45 acp than from a 9mm.

Higher capacity, higher velocity, deeper penetration all can sometimes be more advantageous with the 9mm. True the .45 is a good cartridge at close range and against a soldier with no body armor or standing out in the open but just as in hunting animals your target is not going to stay out in the open for very long if you are pointing a gun at him.

Which do I really like the best. I cannot answer that question, I really do like them both, own both and shoot both. But I tend to shoot my 9's way more than my .45's due to expense and recoil.

 

[Quintin Likely]

Ok, broken record mode:

Doesn't matter if you're using a .22 LR or a .50 BMG...as long as you put 'em where they count.

 

[jc2]

Shot placement with the .40/10mm & above calibers is important also, but these calibers seem more forgiving of "near misses" into a vital organ area - with the "knockdown" energy transfer (i.e., ft-lbs) of the larger calibers and the heavier bullets often being sufficient to cause rapid, if not instant, incapacitation. With the 9mm, you're more or less rolling the dice. (Hopefully, you've got a rabbit's foot in your pocket.

Sure . . . and as long as agtman is quoting Glocktalk:

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72941&highlight=injections

You have to love gunwriters (or anything to sell an article). In the article to which the original poster referred, the bad guy got to one-shot stops (unfortunately both LEOs and on fatally) with a 9x19 while absorbing 25 hits from the .45 ACP. A clear-cut case of superiority, right?

 

[WonderNine]

Now if I could only get everyone to realize that a hot 9mm (.355's) are almost the same thing as a .357. And that 15 hot 9mm's and fast reloading magazines are alot better than 5 or 6 .357's and two speedloaders.

Apparently that's quite a leap for some people.

 

[Blueduck]

Ok...so how many of you "Shot Placement" guys are carrying Hammereli 162's???

9mm/10mm/45 are all relativly tiny (when compared to the human body) chunks of metal flung out of pipe under pressure, that's it. They damage or destroy a very small area of the human body if contact is made. In wartime guys have been hit with multiple 50 cal machien gun rounds, had arms and legs blown clean off and still killed efficiently for minutes after. No super duper hollowpoint in the 9mm or huge .45" bullets gonna be able to guarantee that a crack head or loon might not be able to do the same thing.

Hard for me to get too much in the arguement my two favorite guns are my G-17 and 4506. 45's a bigger bullet, but on the other hand I can get three accurate shots off with the 9mm in the time it takes me to get 2 off with the .45. So if the 45's a 20% better stopper but I multiply by 1.33 then carry the one....Oh hell nevermind, SHOT PLACEMENT.

 

[Lennyjoe]

Hanguns should only be used to fight your way to your rifle

If you dont have a rifle handy then use a handgun with enough capability to neutralize your threat.

One shot or 10, either way I aint gonna quit pumping rounds into the advesary until he abandons his agression.

 

[Scott13]

I think this guys opion on 9's are unfair. Now when it comes to standard 9mm fmj rounds , they have proven to be among the most poor stopper . BUT with Ammo such as Corbon , Hydra-Shok
and some ohters , they have proven very effective . I think that to say the 9mm on the whole is a bad stopper isnt true . I dont really believe in a 1 shot stop anyway , i have heard of people getting hit with a 357 and still continued to come at a police officer . I would agree that the 45 and 357 have much better stopping records . But with todays top of the line ammo , and good shot placement the 9mm is just as effective , and their are reports to prove this .

 

[HadEmAll]

quack quack...... quack quack quack!:banghead:

 

[Fed168]

Keller, SW 4506, 230 gr. Winchester Ranger load.

 

[4thHorseman]

USGuns, you posted a hyperlink that refers you to info on energy transfer from a handgun.
I'm sorry, but many people have turned away from Marshall and Sanow made up stats. Examine it closly and you will see M&S can no way be correct in theory.
Sorry, that dog don't hunt.
All things being equal in shot placement and not taking into account other human factors, a BG just has to "bleed out," ...lack of blood pressure. The deeper and bigger hole accomplishes this well.
The 9mm accomplishes it by expanding to larger caliber by its velocity and impact. I do not believe a 9mm hard ball is as effecient as a 45 hard ball if penetration and placement were equal.
Many ideas on OSS comes from the caliber the army has selected. The army does not use expanding bullets for general issue although they should.

 

[1goodshot]

People survive after being shot with 45s or 44 mags or even rifle calibers. There is no one magic bullet.

 

[Rob999]

shot placement! cover! and common sense... plus 15 rds per magazine, all in 115g, +P JHPs

I can control 9mm follow up shots better than on a 45. And 15+1 rds of that load ought solve it... if that doesn't the other two hi-caps should cover it....

 

[twoblink]

I must address the fact that most people can't hit squat; and so most speak from what seems to me to be a hole other than their mouth...

Others, seem WAY too prepared for serious war (Skunk comes to mind) that's not a bad thing; boy scouts motto...

I'm in the "as big as I can shoot well camp"... So something like .40SW in a Corbon load seems like a good choice to me. .357Sig is another great choice.. I personally feel a little underdefended with a 9mm, but everybody's view is different. If I can shoot it well, then I would probably carry a 9mm..

I think a .45ACP has it's advantages, and a 9mm has it's advantages as well..

There is no magic bullet...

The handgun is for killing that which comes between you and your rifle.

The police with their bad 1 shot stop, 7 shot stop, 35 shot stop stats; are STUPID... They should have been using a .223 or .308... Asking a pistol to do a rifle's job and then getting upset and blaming the caliber is stupid..

 

[WESHOOT2]

I'M A GRAY, AND I KNOW SOME ANATOMY

My 9x19 ammo is not 'insufficient'

Regardless of the caliber I might use, I believe in the 'empty until you get the correct response" method..

 

[WESHOOT2]

I mean I actually believe that.

 

[Jim Higginbotham]

WESHOT2 wrote:
My 9x19 ammo is not 'insufficient'

Regardless of the caliber I might use, I believe in the 'empty until you get the correct response" method..

-----------------------

That's a sound enough plan, so long as one is not making himself a good target (by standing still) or there is not another threat close by that you must deal with (half or more of all assaults involve more than one assailant according to some, though personally I have not found that).

While I am not much on statistics, I don't find the P.M./Fairburn study to be that far off in that on average (with JHP ammo) you can expect to register five (5) 9mm hits before the fight is over and you can expect to register about half that many .357 mag or .45 hits. .38s are somewhere between (the revolver calibers probably indicate that there were several 6 shot cases but you just could not get more at the time the study was done unless you reload - there was the case involving 10 .357 hits in Louisiana). On the other hand this sort of hides the several cases we have seen where 15 9mm chest hits were ineffective and the few cases in which 32,33, 42 and 65 torso hits were ineffective. Of course those are not the norm, but then gunfights are not the norm and my luck is not so good

The fly in the ointment is that typically you only have about 2 to 3 seconds to identify the threat, present your weapon and deal with the problem - it takes most people at least half that time to get the gun out so it matters not so much how many bullets your weapon holds (in most cases but not all) but how many hits you can achieve, while moving, in that second - and how much damage each one does.

Of course all situations are not the same and some do indeed turn into running gun battles when the BG could not deliver a telling blow also. So it is not unsound to go for more capacity.

It is good to Remember John Hall's (former head of the FBI FTU)#3 rule of gunfighting: "Bigger is better and more is more".

Or better yet, Pray the first bullet will work....shoot like the last one won't!

Press on,
Jim H.

 

[WESHOOT2]

SURVIVOR-SPEAK

I prefer the "run screaming like a girl the other way" method best.
I've had BG literally bump into the muzzle of my gun (him moving fast-n-close-by-surprise; me doing fast draw, weak-hand, real fast); met the 'we need six-or-more buddies to feel bad' crowd twice; never shot nobody.
Yet.
Good.

I moved someplace safer.

 

[Jim Higginbotham]

WESHOOT2;
I know exactly what you mean.

It is sort of like the case of John Smith, who showed up at the Pearly Gates and asked St. Peter to let him in.

St. Pete says: "I don't have you down here for any outstanding acts that would allow your admitance. Did we miss something?" (I know it's not theologically sound, bear with me).

John Smith: "Well one time I saw this biker gang bothering this young lady who's car broke down. I waded right in amongnst them and picked out the largest one, yanked his earring out of his ear and said 'you evil people leave this young woman alone, or you will have to answer to me!'"

St. Pete, astonished says: "That was outsthanding, I wonder how we missed that, when did it happen?"

John Smith: "About 2 minutes ago."

Press on,
Jim H.