9mm for deer?

[NCP24]

I've never even been in North Carolina, much less seen the size of the deer you have there. Nor do I know anything about the normal shooting distances for deer there and the shooting capabilities of your father-in-law. I said I'll never believe shooting deer with a .22lr is ethical. However, that doesn't mean I would like to see legislation banning it.

The deer are a lot smaller than northern deer and for normal shooting distances it depends on where you hunt. In my area the average is probably 30 yards, other places it could be several hundred yards.

As for legislating, I think we travel into dangerous waters when we start talking ethics, law and criminal offenses.

I believe from time to time we are all guilty of over analyzing any given topic and I often wonder how much social programing plays a role in our decisions. For example remember back in school when being hip meant you had to drive the fastest coolest muscle car and date the prettiest big breasted Barbie doll and hunt with the largest cannon the gun shop sold.

As you pointed out people just love to argue over the best caliber for deer and that’s find and well, it gives us something to talk about. However when all is said and done it boils down to one thing, what works.



Back on topic, so the old timer wants to hunt deer with a 9mm carbine lets see if we can help him.

"Comparative velocities of 9mm handgun ammunition in typical handguns versus a sample of 9mm carbines." http://www.aboutguns.net/reviews/9mmtests.html

Really quick disclaimer, right up front: this "test" is not science nor is it done really scientifically. It is an anecdotal collection of data. We just know someone is going to cut and paste from this article, go to another web site and post these "scientific test results" as true gospel. Sorry, in real science, you eliminate as many variables as possible and rigorously collect data by repeating the same methodology over and over again. This little collection of information suffers from small data sets, variances in methodology, and general lack of major corporate funding to do a 10,000 round test. We hope you enjoy and appreciate our work, but your tests with your ammo in your gun may be entirely different. Perhaps one day, we can spring the $ necessary to get 1,000 rounds of each type of ammo, and multiple examples of each test rifle. In the meantime, please enjoy our work as it is - unscientific, but fun and informative.

Maybe someone can give a better reference site.

 

[The Bushmaster]

9mm X 19 is NOT a hunting round...It has enough trouble stopping humans let alone a humane kill on a deer. "Shot placement"...Is that on a standing deer or what I am used to in the Great Northwest...A running shot at a deer leaping over a log...At 35 yards...Now that's "shot placement"....

 

[Sharps Shooter]

"I believe from time to time we are all guilty of over analyzing any given topic and I often wonder how much social programing plays a role in our decisions. For example remember back in school when being hip meant you had to drive the fastest coolest muscle car and date the prettiest big breasted Barbie doll and hunt with the largest cannon the gun shop sold."

Yeah, I think I remember. But school was 40 years ago for me. It seems like it was a matter of being "cool" rather than being "hip" back then. I remember "groovy" too.

 

[444]

"remember back in school when being hip meant you had to drive the fastest coolest muscle car and date the prettiest big breasted Barbie doll and hunt with the largest cannon the gun shop sold."


Amazing how some things never change. If I was doing all that, I would be my own idol.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Aah yes...My '46 Chevy half ton pickup with Corvette 327, three stromberg 97's on progressive linkage, 3/4 street cam, slipper pistons, ported, relieved and blueprinted...My .30-30 Winchester and Sharon. I will never forget Sharon...Wow!!! 55 years ago....And I still have her image in my mind. Miss that ol' '46...

 

[BluesBear]

As the great philosopher Eric von Zipper once said, "He is my Idol but I am my Ideal".

 

[mr.trooper]

Its FAR from ideal...But...

Find a 147gr NON FRANGIBLE hollowpoint, and load it to +P+ levels: a CARBINE ONLY load.

Use it at 20 yards or less, and it should do OK.

But seriously...Get soemthing else. A .357 lever action carbine whould be just as good, and not realy weigh any more.

"remember back in school when being hip meant you had to drive the fastest coolest muscle car and date the prettiest big breasted Barbie doll and hunt with the largest cannon the gun shop sold."


Amazing how some things never change. If I was doing all that, I would be my own idol.

Hes right. Thats still cool.

 

[antarti]

As for legislating, I think we travel into dangerous waters when we start talking ethics, law and criminal offenses.

24K agreement.

I'm not going to get in anybody's way over (or mouth off about) how they choose to hunt. I just hope that when something "doesn't work" for them, they have the sense to accept their (or their equipment's) limitations and do something about it.

The only "unethical" thing for the old-timer (or any hunter) to do would be to send off lots of wounded game without some introspection and problem-correction.

 

[NCP24]

Yeah, I think I remember. But school was 40 years ago for me. It seems like it was a matter of being "cool" rather than being "hip" back then. I remember "groovy”

No disrespect intended, I use to raise cain about the very same thing. . . . . that is until I met someone who relied more on their skills than their equipment. It’s not an easy thing to admit when an old timer can out hunt you using a 22lr, single shot minus the fancy camo and cover scent.

Amazing how some things never change. If I was doing all that, I would be my own idol.

Hey who says you can’t be perfect!

Aah yes...My '46 Chevy half ton pickup with Corvette 327, three stromberg 97's on progressive linkage, 3/4 street cam, slipper pistons, ported, relieved and blueprinted...My .30-30 Winchester and Sharon. I will never forget Sharon...Wow!!! 55 years ago....And I still have her image in my mind. Miss that ol' '46...

LOL

I'm not going to get in anybody's way over (or mouth off about) how they choose to hunt. I just hope that when something "doesn't work" for them, they have the sense to accept their (or their equipment's) limitations and do something about it.

Growing up I had a younger friend who just knew he could conquer the word with a 22lr. No doubts about it, he was an excellent hunter given his age. He took all kinds of deer with his trusty rifle . . . . that is until the day he out grew his britches and took a 75-yard headshot.

Needless to say the deer didn’t just fall over and seventyfive yards is a long way to walk while listening to the screams and cries of a wounded whitetail, especially when it’s violently kicking and beating itself off the ground. Two shots later my friend retired his trusty 22lr and graduated to a 270, for him it was the only ethical thing to do.

As you pointed out

The only "unethical" thing for the old-timer (or any hunter) to do would be to send off lots of wounded game without some introspection and problem-correction.

 

[jmorris]

115grn bullet (WWB) exits my Marlin camp 9‘s barrel at 1435fps 525ft/lb energy. The 9mm FMJ will dent steel that other handgun calibers won’t until you get to .41 mag and up. I have seen many cattle (MUCH larger than deer) killed with one shot from a Winchester pump fed .22 shorts. The two rural butchers new right where to place the barrel on the skull. That being said, If he is staying inside 100yds or so he should go find one of the Ruger .44mag carbines.

I sometimes carry a .25 auto, I think it is a great thing to have when I can’t carry a gun.

 

[Michael Courtney]

I've killed nearly 200 deer with everything from pistols, muzzleloaders, broadheads, centerfire rifles, and even the 22LR. This ethical chatter seems odd to me, since without doubt, the outcome of attempting to kill a deer with archery equipment is much less certain than a 9mm or a 22LR in the hands of a skilled shooter. The problem with archery is that the deer can hear the release and move before the projectile impacts, and there is no amount of shooting skill that can completely remove this possibility.

If I was stranded in some "Survivor" scenario and my life or the $1,000,000 prize depended on my ability to harvest deer quickly and reliably, I would be much quicker to choose a 22LR or 9mm carbine as a hunting tool than I would be to choose archery equipment.

Another way to look at it is suppose you were invited to a game that paid you $1,000,000 for every deer you killed cleanly (defined as carvass recovered within 1 hour of the first shot), but penalized you $10,000,000 for every deer you missed or injured but didn't recover in time. You've got a week to do you hunting and you get to keep your accrued winnings minus the penalty for crippling losses. I'd take a 22LR or 9mm carbine over archery and I'd leave the game a very rich man.

Michael Courtney

 

[Harve Curry]

Unless your starving and 9mm is all you got, why mess around and risk a runoff deer, wounded and may not be found. Any living animal deserves better, with the exception of some two legged versions.
Get a traditional caliber deer gun.

 

[rick_reno]

If I were hungry and all I had was a 9mm I use it.

 

[Wedge]

What sort of load is used in an MP5? They are a +p+ submachine gun load right?

 

[sumpnz]

What sort of load is used in an MP5? They are a +p+ submachine gun load right?

I'd like to know what state would let you use a sub-gun for hunting.

 

[JShirley]

The 124 grain +P+ Gold Dot should do the trick if applied correctly.

 

[el44vaquero]

Could be done, but you could also kill a moose with a screwdriver. Just because you can doesn't make it the right thing to do. Get the right tool for the right job.

 

[BluesBear]

No one said anything about hunting with a subgun. The question was about extra powder 9mm ammunition.

Noone said anything about forraging for survival.

This entire bru-ha-ha is about is about someone, delibertly, on purpose, choosing a 9mm carbine for deer hunting.

Human beings can be, and have been, killed by .25acp handguns. But I don't see any Military Force or Police Department issuing them.

Handiness be dammed.
There is a responsibility incurred when hunting for sport.
Handiness should not be at the top of the importance list.

So, I'll change my opinion of the "older gentleman" referred to in the original post from fool to irresponsible fool.

 

[Cosmoline]

The comparison to bowhunting is specious. An arrow kills by cutting, and its extremely high sectional density allows it to penetrate clean through a deer even at very low velocities. A bullet kills by lacerating, and the SD of a 9mm slug is horrible. If the bullet does not have sufficient SD and velocity , it may not penetrate even a deer and may not do enough damage to kill the animal quickly.

Many moose up here have been killed with .22's to the brainpan, but not legally. It's the cruel and quiet technique of poachers.

 

[cookekdjr]

If he's gonna do it no matter what, have him use this load by Buffalo Bore:

(+P+) 147gr. Speer Uni Core @ 1175 fps
451 ft. lbs

Out of a carbine, it will be about 200-300 fps faster, so he's looking at shooting a 147gr bullet at about 1400 fps.
-David

 

[antarti]

This ethical chatter seems odd to me, since without doubt, the outcome of attempting to kill a deer with archery equipment is much less certain than a 9mm or a 22LR in the hands of a skilled shooter.

I know a lot of archers who are very ethical hunters. Their preparation before the hunt, concerning their chosen equipment and practice, puts many rifle hunters to shame.

They usually have venison and boar in the freezer too.

 

[BluesBear]

I think a better comparison would be to compare a gun hunter using a 9mm instead of a .30-30 to a bow hunter using a target tip instead of a broadhead.
Or a carpenter using a rubber mallet to drive nails.


Don't be a fool ya' Yob,
Use the right tool for the job.

 

[MNgoldenbear]

I've killed nearly 200 deer... the outcome of attempting to kill a deer with archery equipment is much less certain than a 9mm or a 22LR in the hands of a skilled shooter. ...I would be much quicker to choose a 22LR or 9mm carbine as a hunting tool than I would be to choose archery equipment. ...I'd take a 22LR or 9mm carbine over archery and I'd leave the game a very rich man.

Okay, I'm guessing you're not much of an archer? I haven't taken even a fraction as many deer as you, but I've had deer hit solidly with a slug across the chest that ran much farther than one hit with a broadhead. I've seen a lot more game animals wounded by firearms as well (simply because there are more firearms hunters). There are good and poor hunters who use every type of equipment, and even those of us who are pretty good shots have off days. Personally, I'd just as soon choose a bow that was set up properly and that I was familiar with over a light caliber like 22LR or 9mm, and I'm a decent shot with those as well.

 

[JShirley]

Let me just point out that there is a world of difference between a .22LR and a 9x19mm, starting with at least twice the weight at a similar or potentially much higher velocity.

I have tested a 9x19mm on a recently killed deer, and I have also terminated with a .40 S&W a deer that refused to stop living after a solid hit with a .35 Remington. I've also killed pests with a 9x19 carbine.

The point is, those who talk about how uncapable the 9mm is are only correct in comparison with a rifle. Sure, a 7.62x39mm cartridge with a decent bullet would be a more effective choice, but the 9mm carbine, with a quality hollowpoint, can certainly work at reasonable ranges, and will probably be a little more effective (due to greater potential for practical accuracy) than a .357 Magnum handgun.

John

 

[5.56]

9mm deer round

I agree that it is at the bottom of the scale for a deer round. However, to be fair and honest. I have on many occasions taken deer with a 9MM Glock. Ones with a broken leg running on 3 legs. Car vs deer. I was with the sheriff's office. I was using 115gr Win. silvertips. The shots were from 20 yards to 40 yrds. Usually at night. It was not my weapon of choice to put a deer down with, but it was what we were allowed to carry and use. Shot placement, hit a deer in the boiler room with a 9mm and he is going down. I only need about 3 or 4 inches in the bottom of the chest to clip both lungs.

Now if you ask me what I hunt with when my son and I go to WV..........I use a .308 The last 8 deer have been one shot deer. So I agree, 9mm is lite, but proper shot placement it will certainly work.

5.56