9mm Help

[918v]

Looking at your pic, I don't think so. If your bullet had a 1R profile, then I'd agree, but your bullet looks to have the same or nearly the same profile as any factory 9mm RN slug. I can't imagine your gun has a chamber this tight.

Perhaps you overcrimped and buckled the case? That would explain the hard chambering.

 

[Grub Master]

Looking at your pic, I don't think so. If your bullet had a 1R profile, then I'd agree, but your bullet looks to have the same or nearly the same profile as any factory 9mm RN slug. I can't imagine your gun has a chamber this tight.

Perhaps you overcrimped and buckled the case? That would explain the hard chambering.

I am now using the Lee crimp instead of the Dillon. It removed the coke bottle look.

 

[918v]

Measure your loaded round at the case mouth, themiddle of the case coinciding to where the bullet base is positioned, and the case head. Compare those figures to those you got from the factory round.

 

[Peter_S]

Any .356" lead bullet I reload needs to be seated deep enough that the driving band/shank/tail (whatever it's called) is almost completely inside the case. Any longer it jams in the barrel throat, not on the lands.
The jacketed .355" bullets don't do this.

I've had this happen with lead FP, SWC and even round nose.

 

[rfwobbly]

If the bullet I am using is more of a round nose (probably not a correct term) then the factory, would I need to set it deeper to get a proper fit in my barrel?

Mr Master -
With the short chamber XDM you got 2 things going on at the same time: OAL and crimp. Either can keep the cartridge from dropping into the chamber with a "clink" indicating it's going all the way in.

Quote:
I had to get it down to 1.106 so it would drop out easily.
While that sounds short enough, it is wholly determined by the bullet-to-barrel fit. You haven't told us about your bullet. And any lead bullet is going to be more difficult than a plated or jacketed bullet.

That's what we're trying to tell you. Eastern European guns like CZ and the Croatian-built Springfield XD series (and even some older Berettas) use a tight chamber coupled with a short freebore. The tight chamber means your crimp is going to need to be right. And the short freebore means your OAL is going to end up shorter than you ever thought, especially since you're trying to load a lead bullet which is a larger diameter than jacketed or plated. Peter S told you right. The larger diameter is probably rubbing on the throat. Here's a highly over-emphasized cartoon of what I'm trying to tell you....



If you were loading this same bullet in a Glock, then you'd have shot them all my now, but the Glock chamber is so loosey-goosey that it will accept any ammo. So it makes one heck of a difference what gun you shoot these in.

If you were loading plated RN bullets or jacketed RN bullets you wouldn't be having half these issues because of their smaller diameter. Don't be deceived. Lead bullets are cheap, but loading them in some guns is NOT so easy.

BTW... Are you sure he said "African" bullet? Judging by the difficulty you're having, he could have said "a-frickin" bullet.

Hope this helps!

 

[Grub Master]

Thanks for the info and the drawings. It's a 115FMJ and once I've shot this group, I will only use brand name or bullets that I can get re-loading data for.

 

[LiveLife]

rfwobbly, every time I see that picture with loose brand "G" chamber reflected with that looong distance to rifling, I get a good laugh.

Nice job on the pic, again!

 

[jb27]

If you were loading this same bullet in a Glock, then you'd have shot them all my now, but the Glock chamber is so loosey-goosey that it will accept any ammo. So it makes one heck of a difference what gun you shoot these in.

If you were loading plated RN bullets or jacketed RN bullets you wouldn't be having half these issues because of their smaller diameter.

Dang. Now I feel really stupid. I'm also new to reloading and just finished loading some 9mm rounds for my Glock 19. I'm using starline brass, Berry's plated 115 gr RN bullets, 4.2 gr W-231 to an OAL of 1.105. I tried to mimic the factory rounds (also 115 gr) that i've previously fired for OAL. I think they were just under 1.100.

Loaded up 50 rounds. Took them to the range and they are getting hung up and not cycling. If I did monkey with them a little they would eventually chamber and fired fine. They just don't feed the way they should. I've split the remaining batch and seated some deeper (1.090 OAL) and put more crimp on them (previously only went 1/8 turn, increased to 1/4 turn). The others I just added more crimp.

I checked the original batch and they did fit in the chamber of the gun. Not sure what's going on. I just ordered some Dillon case gages and I'll check my rounds in this once they get here. Maybe that'll point out what i'm doing wrong.

 

[LiveLife]

I checked the original batch and they did fit in the chamber of the gun. Not sure what's going on.

Doing the drop test holding the barrel upside down is not enough. Did you do a function test feeding/chambering from the magazine and manually release the slide?

If the taper crimp is not flat, some rounds will fall into loose Glock chamber but not feed/chamber from the magazine.

 

[jb27]

Doing the drop test holding the barrel upside down is not enough. Did you do a function test feeding/chambering from the magazine and manually release the slide?

Yeah, the drop test is what I was referring to. If I put a round in the clip and rack the slide sometimes it will chamber. If i add the slightest bit of resistance to the slide it'll get hung up before it gets into the chamber. If I lock the slide back, put a clip in with a round in it then release the slide, it chambers. Kind of makes me wonder if maybe my powder charge could be too light? I used Lymans manual which suggests 3.5 to 4.9 gr for 115gr JHP. Hodgdon's website suggest 4.3 to 4.8 gr for 115gr LRN. I picked a 'spot in the middle' at 4.2 gr.

As a side note, when I adjusted the crimp die, it changed the measurement from 0.377 to 0.375. Also, I'm using a Lee Classic Turret Press with Lee carbide dies.

 

[rfwobbly]

JB27 -

You have 2 completely different and distinct adjustments going on there.

• The crimp diameter determines whether the cartridge case has had enough flair removed to allow the case to enter the chamber all the way. The Luger cartridge is tapered. That should tell you that the Luger chamber is also tapered. "Tapered" means it gets smaller and smaller as you go in toward the rifling. So the taper crimp ensures that all the flair is gone so that full case seating can occur. Capiche ?

Once you remove enough flair for the case for it to work in your barrel, then STOP !! More is NOT better. If you have 3 different 9mm guns, then a case gauge might help, but if you only have one, then the barrel from that 1 gun is a far, far better gauge. Save your money, honey.

• Feeding is related to the ramp shape, bullet nose shape, mag lips, OAL and some other variables. The only one you have control over is OAL. The Barry 115, 124, 130, 135, & 147gr RN will all load in my tight-chambered CZ just fine out to the max of 1.169", so your Glock is going to laugh at longer lengths. I usually run into feeding issues when the 9mm cartridge gets down to the 1.050" area, so I believe your issue is that your rounds are too short, not too long.

IMHO you need to make up 5 rounds each at 1.160". 1.150", 1.140", 1.130" & 1.120". I think your feeding issues will completely disappear between 1.150" and 1.120".

Hodgdon's website suggest 4.3 to 4.8 gr for 115gr LRN. I picked a 'spot in the middle' at 4.2 gr.

• Your load is way underpowered because 4.2gr does not fall between 4.3 and 4.8gr. I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but you cannot fail 3rd Grade math and be a safe reloader. Start loading at 4.4gr until you find your perfect OAL, then do some load testing for accuracy with your new OAL. That should cure everything.


Hope this helps!

 

[jb27]

RFWOBBLY - Thank you for your constructive advice. I will make longer rounds as you suggest to see if this fixes my problem. I assume you meant to say 1.120" (instead of 1.020") for the last trial round?

As for my picking a spot 'in the middle', I said "I used Lymans manual which suggests 3.5 to 4.9 gr for 115gr JHP.". If you take the average of these, you will end up with 4.2, which is the 'spot in the middle' i referred to. Perhaps I should have reworded my post to say the info from Hodgdon's website at the end, as I looked at that info after the fact as I was posting.

I guess I'm still confused as to why my gun has no problem cycling factory 115 RN's with an OAL of less than 1.100 but has trouble with the 1.105 that I loaded if the 1.105 is too short.

 

[rfwobbly]

I assume you meant to say 1.120" (instead of 1.020") for the last trial round?

Yes you are correct. Good eyes! My bad!

As for my picking a spot 'in the middle', I said "I used Lymans manual which suggests 3.5 to 4.9 gr for 115gr JHP.".

You are correct, however you have to realize that there are revolvers that shoot 9x19 by using "moon clips". Obviously a revolver, having no action to cycle, can shoot a far lower load. Both my Hornady books are suggesting 4.3 as minimum. If you want to install a weaker spring, then you could probably use those lower loads.

I guess I'm still confused as to why my gun has no problem cycling factory 115 RN's with an OAL of less than 1.100 but has trouble with the 1.105 that I loaded if the 1.105 is too short.

Frankly, you'd need 3 weeks, $10,000 and a high speed camera to answer that question. If your mag would only accept bullets out to 1.100" then that might be a solution. However, your mags will accept cartridges all the way out to 1.169", and about 2 minutes after you install cartridges with an OAL of 1.140" your gun is going to be feeding like it's never done before. So unless you have lots of spare cash just sitting around, you can move on to solving your issues using the more direct and much less costly route.

Take it from me. Not all questions in life have an answer.

However, I could find a place for an extra $10,000.

 

[jb27]

Thanks. I'll try the longer rounds. I'm just trying to understand everything. Sounds like you have far more knowledge than me in this arena, so i'll take your advice and move on.

 

[rfwobbly]

What about the $10,000 ???

 

[1SOW]

It's hard for us to help with an unknown bullet shape and size.

Usually what drives having to load 'short' is the length of the bullet nose (from where the dead vertical side of the bullet starts to curve to the tip). If that's very 'short' then it will have to be loaded shorter than what's typically used. In 9mm, very little of the "straight side-wall" of the bullet can show above the case mouth. That's why flat tip and hollow point bullets are usually loaded shorter.

You may be right in the ballpark for "that" bullet, but it's hard for us to judge if we haven't used it.

 

[jb27]

I loaded up 5 at each OAL suggested (1.160, 1.150, 1.140, 1.130, 1.120) and used 4.4 gr of W-231. My Lee powder measure disks will throw 4.2 or 4.6 gr (verified with scale), so I ended up measuring each load by hand:banghead:.

Out of the seating die, the rounds measured 0.378. I set the crimp die at 0.377. I checked the rounds in my guns chamber before and after crimping and they both worked without issue.

Was able to sneak out to the range tonight to give them a try. Wouldn't you know it, none of them cycled cleanly. The majority of the time the spent case wouldn't eject. Most of the time it would partially eject and get stuck. A few times it would't eject at all.

I guess i'll bump up the powder charge to 4.6 gr and see if that ejects the cases, then hopefully they'll cycle correctly. I shot some of my carry ammo just to make sure it wasn't an issue with the gun and they worked flawlessly.

 

[rfwobbly]

JB -
That's great news and a great start. So your feeding issues are over and you simply need to slowly "climb the power ladder" until you find a workable load.

To be on the safe side...
1) I'd rather see you step up in small increments by weighing all your loads. You're right to try 4.6gr next, but that puts you fairly high in the load range and 4.7gr might be next. I'd stop at 4.8gr because you must have a lubrication issue or something binding in the gun. In effect, you might be driving with the brakes on. By all reasonable standards, a weighed out 4.4gr should have done OK.

2) Don't let the Lee powder measure dictate your load or push you toward unsafe levels. Use the scale to find the right load for YOU, then modify the Lee PM to make it deliver for YOU. Don't let the stove be telling you what to eat. Follow?

Hope this helps!

 

[Grub Master]

Shot the reseated loads yesterday and they were ok in both my XDM and Springfield EMP. I will now start tweaking in small increments to get accuracy. Ordered 115 and 124 Berry bullets yesterday and will stick with known brands in the future. I need to get more efficient at putting everything together and spend more time shooting. Thanks for all the help.