Crimping 9mm Not Required?

[CQB45ACP]

And this is my theory... regardless of what the instructions say: Any case mouth that that is turned into the bullet, but without deformation of the case wall, has to aid, mechanically, the force needed to dislodge the bullet either forward or backwards. You can get silly with it, like in jmorris' photo of the pulled bullets, and defeat the mechanical advantage of neck tension... and probably some of the potential accuracy... by overcrimping. I've destroyed .41MAG brass by smashing in the patented Charlie98 Death Grip Crimp... that was back in the Old Days before I understood neck tension. I also understand that a knetic hammer is not the same as firing a round out of a pistol... certainly there are dynamics in play there that are different.

In the 9mm, my main concern is bullet setback on feeding. The steep feedramp of my Kahr pistols really hammers the nose of the bullets, and at max or near max load, with something like TiteGroup, bullet setback could invite disaster. It's one of the reasons I segregate my 9mm brass by headstamp, because each headstamp, it seems, is different from the other in regards to neck tension and bullet seating. Just my observation, and my .02 worth.

The setback issue is always a potential issue for sure.
BTW these were all FC cases. I too separate by headstamp cause it seems to make the process more consistent. (But that’s another thread for another day).

 

[Y-T71]

Sure big guy, but my confusion comes from I smack ON a piece of wood

Just messin with you.

I think, if It caused that much curiosity, I'd load a couple of dummy rounds, measure them and then chamber them from my magazine and measure them again.

Much like using your barrel(s) to set OAL instead of a case gauge (you're not shooting your reloads out of a case gauge) you're getting a better idea of how your ammo is going to react with all the factors existent when you actually fire your ammo.

In my version of reality, I typically don't smack my reloads with a block of wood before firing them but, instead, I know my reloads will be stripped out of the magazine, will then strike the feed ramp, will then strike the top of the chamber before finally coming to rest snugly in the chamber so, IMHO, cycling some dummies will give me a much more realistic idea of what is likely to happen when I involve live rounds.

 

[jmorris]

Autoloading cartridges in a revolver is sort of an oddity... maybe 'oddity' isn't the right word, how about 'not commonplace?' How you load a cartridge for one pistol (a semi-auto...) would be different than loading it for a revolver.

The difference for me is I use SPP brass for (45acp) revolvers, as I can reduce the main spring tension (for better trigger pull) more than I can using LPP and retain 100% reliability. Once GAP brass came out, I switched to it because not only is it SPP but I can also moon/demoon without needing tools.

I don’t roll crimp or anything like that though.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Just messin with you.

I think, if It caused that much curiosity, I'd load a couple of dummy rounds, measure them and then chamber them from my magazine and measure them again.

Much like using your barrel(s) to set OAL instead of a case gauge (you're not shooting your reloads out of a case gauge) you're getting a better idea of how your ammo is going to react with all the factors existent when you actually fire your ammo.

In my version of reality, I typically don't smack my reloads with a block of wood before firing them but, instead, I know my reloads will be stripped out of the magazine, will then strike the feed ramp, will then strike the top of the chamber before finally coming to rest snugly in the chamber so, IMHO, cycling some dummies will give me a much more realistic idea of what is likely to happen when I involve live rounds.

I know I’m just cranky in the AM

This test is the latest (hopefully last) look at what began many posts ago.

For me thought I was simply saying “hey check this out, I’m using a new seater and don’t need to crimp anymore.” It wasn’t a problem to correct. I shoot a ton of 9mm and just noticed this with the new seater.

I forgot one of the rules of forums…or any communication for that matter…it’s not what you say, it’s what people hear.

And I don’t have the courage to smack any loaded ammo with all my strength (and I’m not even that strong).

 

[Y-T71]

I know I’m just cranky in the AM

This test is the latest (hopefully last) look at what began many posts ago.

For me thought I was simply saying “hey check this out, I’m using a new seater and don’t need to crimp anymore.” It wasn’t a problem to correct. I shoot a ton of 9mm and just noticed this with the new seater.

I forgot one of the rules of forums…or any communication for that matter…it’s not what you say, it’s what people hear.

And I don’t have the courage to smack any loaded ammo with all my strength (and I’m not even that strong).

I hear you!

As someone already said; I enjoy the conversation and different points of view.

Discussions like this is where I usually learn something new and I like that!

 

[ballman6711]

VA’s newer background law

I don't want to derail the thread, but could you expound on this or maybe provide a link? My immediate family all live in VA and there may be some info that they aren't aware of. Thanks.

Back on topic, I would also make a few dummy rounds without crimp, then measure the coal, and then chamber from the magazine, measuring each round after each chambering. This will let you know if your uncrimped rounds have enough neck tension to resist seating deeper.

chris

 

[Charlie98]

Discussions like this is where I usually learn something new and I like that!

+1

 

[CQB45ACP]

I don't want to derail the thread, but could you expound on this or maybe provide a link? My immediate family all live in VA and there may be some info that they aren't aware of. Thanks.

Back on topic, I would also make a few dummy rounds without crimp, then measure the coal, and then chamber from the magazine, measuring each round after each chambering. This will let you know if your uncrimped rounds have enough neck tension to resist seating deeper.

chris

It’s the “universal” background check rqmt enacted during Northam’s term a few years ago. That’s why I said new “er”

Now you can give away a gun like before, but to sell one you need an FFL to send the background check stuff to state police and ATF. It’s a transfer pure and simple.

As you know FFLs in these parts are few and like to make dinero for transfer services. Most are hoping you’ll just consign the firearm so they can make 25%. I’m not cynical or anything

Used to be a great bulletin board at NRA range we’d buy and sell firearms at the range itself (I’d always ask to see carry permit though). Now the transfer has to occur elsewhere at an FFL. I’m sure some violate the law but I wouldn’t ever.

I have done the mag test a while back but may try it again. Actually have 1911 without firing pin standing by.

 

[Rule3]

Grammar nazi says “it’s properly called a flare removal device.”

Your are correct and stated so with "flair"

 

[Jim Watson]

Actually have 1911 without firing pin standing by

When I was wrestling with feeding various bullets, I cut a firing pin short so I could have the slide assembled with extractor and firing pin stop properly retained for safe gymnastication.
Then I quit wrestling and went to roundnose bullets for all bulk reloading.

 

[CQB45ACP]

When I was wrestling with feeding various bullets, I cut a firing pin short so I could have the slide assembled with extractor and firing pin stop properly retained for safe gymnastication.
Then I quit wrestling and went to roundnose bullets for all bulk reloading.

Good idea—both of them

 

[Bcwitt]

Id at least separate headstamps. Lots of different ideas how to make cases out there.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Id at least separate headstamps. Lots of different ideas how to make cases out there.

I do
Original Test showed several different still didn’t need crimp

 

[mdi]

I think I'm gonna drop out of this thread. "smack it as hard as I can, 5 times"? No way in he** am I going to do something that (*%@^!! then post it in a forum for the whole world to see...

 

[higgite]

I could be wrong, I was once before, but I think he meant smack the inertial bullet puller (hammer) on the 2x4.
Though I have had my head smacked with a 2x4 a number of times with no ill effects... no ill effects... no ill effects...

 

[CQB45ACP]

I could be wrong, I was once before, but I think he meant smack the inertial bullet puller (hammer) on the 2x4.
Though I have had my head smacked with a 2x4 a number of times with no ill effects... no ill effects... no ill effects...

You might be wrong about that. It was I who was wrong once before. You are wrong once again.

Actually though shouldn’t take five smacks if it was an inertia hammer.

 

[lordpaxman]

“Smack as hard as you can” with what exactly? I can’t quite picture what you’re doing.

It’s pretty simple, really. Grab the loaded round between opposing digits, bullet facing aforementioned 2x4, wham, rinse, lather, repeat 4 more x. No, you don’t have to hurt yourself, unless you want to. The bullet will most likely dent the wood.
Rather than chamber loaded rounds, this is what I do. Not that chambering loaded rounds is a problem, I just don’t want to run that test in the various guns I have. And I’ve tried the “push really hard” method of testing setback but it doesn’t relieve the frustration like a good smack does.

 

[CQB45ACP]

It’s pretty simple, really. Grab the loaded round between opposing digits, bullet facing aforementioned 2x4, wham, rinse, lather, repeat 4 more x. No, you don’t have to hurt yourself, unless you want to. The bullet will most likely dent the wood.
Rather than chamber loaded rounds, this is what I do. Not that chambering loaded rounds is a problem, I just don’t want to run that test in the various guns I have. And I’ve tried the “push really hard” method of testing setback but it doesn’t relieve the frustration like a good smack does.

Okay think I got it now. and I’d guess grip on round with just two fingers isn't too tight so it slips out somewhat with hard smack?

 

[higgite]

Darn! That makes twice I’ve been wrong in my life. He WAS smashing the bullet end of a cartridge on a 2x4!
Which begs the question(s), do you measure neck tension by the depth of dimple it makes in the 2x4? What’s the minimum acceptable dimple depth? Do you use a standard density 2x4 or just any old thing from Home Depot? Asking for a friend.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Darn! That makes twice I’ve been wrong in my life. He WAS smashing the bullet end of a cartridge on a 2x4!
Which begs the question(s), do you measure neck tension by the depth of dimple it makes in the 2x4? What’s the minimum acceptable dimple depth? Do you use a standard density 2x4 or just any old thing from Home Depot? Asking for a friend.

Sit down first. Okay, get this, has to be pressure treated wood.
Actually that was funnier as I was thinking of it vs reading it.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

You might be wrong about that. It was I who was wrong once before. You are wrong once again.

Actually though shouldn’t take five smacks if it was an inertia hammer.

I’m really not sure what is so mind blowing about not needing to flare, flair, or FLAR a case mouth to seat a bullet or skip the “crimp” step when seating is complete. I know some people want to ignore the existence of the Lee Classic Loader but, as has been pointed out, this is perfectly normal for that tool. What’s so special?

Now, someone tell us the difference between a “taper crimp” and “deflaring.” Isn’t it just a matter of degree?

 

[lordpaxman]

Okay think I got it now. and I’d guess grip on round with just two fingers isn't too tight so it slips out somewhat with hard smack?

‘Zachly …

Darn! That makes twice I’ve been wrong in my life. He WAS smashing the bullet end of a cartridge on a 2x4!
Which begs the question(s), do you measure neck tension by the depth of dimple it makes in the 2x4? What’s the minimum acceptable dimple depth? Do you use a standard density 2x4 or just any old thing from Home Depot? Asking for a friend.

Have him check isle 17, bin 22 - they sell a Dimplometer that has an app to go with it, it measures the wood hardness and then photos the dimple and calculates neck tension, all using AI.

 

[desmobob]

The whole neck tension issue was causing me a lot of grief when I first started reloading mixed range brass 9mm. As a newb, I was paranoid about bullet setback and could even see evidence of it in cartridges that had been removed/rechambered several times in my carry gun.

Like a lot of folks, I tried to use the taper crimp die to insure good neck tension. (And then my paranoia focused on the possibility of the cartridge not headspacing on the case mouth if I tapered it too much!) It seemed like the more aggressively I set the taper crimp, the less tension I'd have or I'd deform cases. I kept a drop-in cartridge checker next to the press.

I eventually went to taper crimping just enough to remove the flare and then running rounds through a Lee Factory Crimp Die to relieve my worries about set-back. Seems to work out fine. I'm sort of surprised I only saw one other mention of the Lee FCD. That has me wondering....

 

[CQB45ACP]

The whole neck tension issue was causing me a lot of grief when I first started reloading mixed range brass 9mm. As a newb, I was paranoid about bullet setback and could even see evidence of it in cartridges that had been removed/rechambered several times in my carry gun.

Like a lot of folks, I tried to use the taper crimp die to insure good neck tension. (And then my paranoia focused on the possibility of the cartridge not headspacing on the case mouth if I tapered it too much!) It seemed like the more aggressively I set the taper crimp, the less tension I'd have or I'd deform cases. I kept a drop-in cartridge checker next to the press.

I eventually went to taper crimping just enough to remove the flare and then running rounds through a Lee Factory Crimp Die to relieve my worries about set-back. Seems to work out fine. I'm sort of surprised I only saw one other mention of the Lee FCD. That has me wondering....

Oh boy, here we go, it’s an FCD question…what can the FCD do to relieve worries about set-back?

 

[CQB45ACP]

I’m really not sure what is so mind blowing about not needing to flare, flair, or FLAR a case mouth to seat a bullet or skip the “crimp” step when seating is complete. I know some people want to ignore the existence of the Lee Classic Loader but, as has been pointed out, this is perfectly normal for that tool. What’s so special?

Now, someone tell us the difference between a “taper crimp” and “deflaring.” Isn’t it just a matter of degree?

I agree completely.

Next you’re going to want affirmation about bar stool reloading.