9mm +p ?

[Sirclintler1]

Generally I stay away from +p however this time is different (famous last words).
9mm 124gr plated RN for home defense, The firearm is a rugar security-9 semi auto. On pg 13 of the OEM supplied literature it's stated that +p+ ammunition should not be used. A standard load using alliant red dot at 4.6gr provides a chamber pressure of 33k. Per SAAMI the max psi for a 9mm is 35k, This leaves room to sneek up on max/+p. I was thinking +p and +p+ were close to the same in terms of PSI, Meaning a no go on one is a no go on both, Is this correct? I am having trouble finding definitive info. I see a lot of numbers in the 38.5k range which seems extremely high. Thoughts?

 

[Mark_Mark]

Generally I stay away from +p however this time is different (famous last words).
9mm 124gr plated RN for home defense, The firearm is a rugar security-9 semi auto. On pg 13 of the OEM supplied literature it's stated that +p+ ammunition should not be used. A standard load using alliant red dot at 4.6gr provides a chamber pressure of 33k. Per SAAMI the max psi for a 9mm is 35k, This leaves room to sneek up on max/+p. I was thinking +p and +p+ were close to the same in terms of PSI, Meaning a no go on one is a no go on both, Is this correct? I am having trouble finding definitive info. I see a lot of numbers in the 38.5k range which seems extremely high. Thoughts?

regular Plated round nose goes through 5 walls. +P should go through 8 walls? you don’t like your walls?

get some hollow points! better at expanding and not going though so many walls

 

[fxvr5]

9mm Max limit is 35,000 psi.

9mm +P Max limit is 38,500 psi.

SAAMI specs: https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

+P+ is anything over 38,500 psi.

 

[NWcityguy2]

+P is about pressure, not velocity. A standard pressure load can have a higher velocity than a +P load from another powder. If a load goes over 35k but is below 38.5k PSI, it is +P regardless of the velocity.

Western Powder publishes +P loads for most of their pistol powders. Look for a bottle of Accurate #5, #7, Ramshot True Blue, or Sillhoutte.

 

[Swampman]

So far as I know, no gun manufacturer is OK with using +P+ ammunition, specifically because there's no SAAMI or CIP standards and thus no defined upper pressure limit.

The Ruger Security 9 manual states:
"No 9mm ammunition manufactured in
accordance with NATO, U.S., SAAMI, or CIP standards is known to be beyond the
design limits or known not to function in this pistol."

So +P is OK according to Ruger.

Handloads, not so much...

 

[DocRock]

It's proper name is 38 Super Auto...

 

[Swampman]

Or .357 Sig...

 

[fxvr5]

It's proper name is 38 Super Auto...

Nope. It's 356 TSW.

The 38 Super is too long.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Nope. It's 356 TSW.

The 38 Super is too long.

STI 2011 can easy load extra long 9mm Major!

thanks to John Wick #3

 

[fxvr5]

STI 2011 can easy load extra long 9mm Major!

thanks to John Wick #3

If you're going to use a gun that size, then 38 Super or 9X23 is the way to go.

9 major, in an 2011 or even a 9mm length gun, has been around longer than John Wick.

So has the 356 TSW (circa 1993). It was a factory loaded 9mm-length round that made Major power factor.

But, we digress.

I hope the previous posts have answered the OP's question about 9mm +P and +P+ pressure limits.

 

[NMexJim]

As Mark_ Mark says, you'll be getting too much penetration. +P and +P+ aside, a bullet needs to expand in order to expend as much energy as possible in the body and fall out just on the other to the floor, or better yet, shatter bone and bounce around a bit. I don't think plated RN will give you that energy transfer.

The best commercial defensive loads and those used under FBI standards want no more than 12" to 16" of penetration. A huge amount of work has gone into providing effective bullet expansion that retains its weight. I too would recommend you use hollow points. Keep the penetration in the bad guy and not through a wall on into a kid.

I personally carry Federal HST. I've also carried Hydra-Shok and Ranger T. None of these in +P loading. Golden Saber, Gold Dot, Sig. All kinds of good stuff out there.

The Armed Services are turning to HP ammo, and getting away from FMJ.

Shoot high pressure for some other reason like it's fun or something. .

 

[fxvr5]

STI 2011 can easy load extra long 9mm Major!

thanks to John Wick #3

I haven't seen #3. Does he specifically note using 9 Major in his 2011?

 

[Mark_Mark]

If you're going to use a gun that size, then 38 Super or 9X23 is the way to go.

9 major, in an 2011 or even a 9mm length gun, has been around longer than John Wick.

So has the 356 TSW (circa 1993). It was a factory loaded 9mm-length round that made Major power factor.

But, we digress.

I hope the previous posts have answered the OP's question about 9mm +P and +P+ pressure limits.

I shoot limited major with 9mm! FUN

 

[Mark_Mark]

I haven't seen #3. Does he specifically note using 9 Major in his 2011?

YEP! front desk guy who gave JW the STI Combat Master said “May I suggest the 9mm Major, 125gn going 1425 fps” that’s a power factor of 178! NICE

 

[fxvr5]

I shoot limited major with 9mm! FUN

But a 9mm does not qualify for Major scoring in Limited division in USPSA or IPSC that I'm aware of. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Mark_Mark]

But a 9mm does not qualify for Major scoring in Limited division in USPSA or IPSC that I'm aware of. Correct me if I'm wrong.

your right... i guest I been shooting 9mm major but being scored minor

 

[lordpaxman]

But a 9mm does not qualify for Major scoring in Limited division in USPSA or IPSC that I'm aware of. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I know! I know, pick me! my SO class is coming up... I gotta answer this one right!
L/L10 specifies a minimum .40/10mm/.357 Sig caliber for major. You could shoot Open which specs min 112gr bullet for major (and .38/9x19 min caliber). Hope I got it right.
To the OP, RMR sells a true jacketed hollow point, they call it the Multi Purpose bullet, I highly recommend these. If you’re going to run hot loads, plated technology may not stand up to the velocities you’ll attain. There are other jacketed HPs out there as well.
If you only have plated RN and have the need to load them for home self defense, standard velocities and good shot placement will serve you just as well. Good luck.

 

[Hartkopf]

As far as +p+ goes, BuffaloBore writes that they do not load higher than SAAMI. This from a Midway ad for BB 147gr 9mm +p+.

 

[jmorris]

+P is about pressure, not velocity. A standard pressure load can have a higher velocity than a +P load from another powder.

Exactly, you can plug the end of the barrel and get pressures over +p (+p+) but why?

What do you get for running “off the chart” pressures?

From Federal, you get a 115 grain JHP running 1300fps out of an unknown barrel length.



Neat but we can get that with a standard load using a slower powder that doesn’t have as high peak pressure. Note that the load circled below isn’t even +p much less beyond +p.



And that data was collected with a 4” barrel as well.
https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading-data/handgun-reloading/?cartridge=89

How about https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=120 +P+.



1165 fps with a 147 JHP out of a 4” barrel. Back to the vihtavuori link above and we see, 1207 with a 147 JHP out of a 4” barrel, before rise to even the +p level.

On pg 13 of the OEM supplied literature it's stated that +p+ ammunition should not be used.

They say that because they claim that no ammunition made in accordance with SAAMI, among others, standards is known not to function. However SAAMI does not have a standard for +P+.



So +P is over 35,000 up to 38,500, +P+ is 38,501 all the way to kaboom.

Likely why they throw all reloads under the bus, because at times they have no standards either.

 

[AJC1]

Bullets are just as hard to find as any other component these days... for ease of finding and function an xtp would be worlds above a rn and not unobtainable.

 

[fxvr5]

From Federal, you get a 115 grain JHP running 1300fps out of an unknown barrel length.

Neat but we can get that with a standard load using a slower powder that doesn’t have as high peak pressure. Note that the load circled below isn’t even +p much less beyond +p.

1165 fps with a 147 JHP out of a 4” barrel. Back to the vihtavuori link above and we see, 1207 with a 147 JHP out of a 4” barrel, before rise to even the +p level.

The Federal BPLE 115 +P+ velocity is from a 4" barrel.

Here's a recent article looking at various high speed 9mm handloads, including the Vihtavuori loads;
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/fast-9mm-loads/388612

 

[Sirclintler1]

I understand, RN have their place but it isn't in a defense rd, however, the guy paying the bill wants RN. He also likes +p, after doing some research here and other places it seems the only garentee is higher pressure and lower safety, couldn't I just use a faster burning powder like red dot, and still stay within the min/max tolerance. I guess I do not understand the why behind +p in a non comp setting.

 

[AJC1]

I understand, RN have their place but it isn't in a defense rd, however, the guy paying the bill wants RN. He also likes +p, after doing some research here and other places it seems the only garentee is higher pressure and lower safety, couldn't I just use a faster burning powder like red dot, and still stay within the min/max tolerance. I guess I do not understand the why behind +p in a non comp setting.

If you have a good hollowpoint and a subcompact you might need + p for full expansion

 

[LightninST]

If you want Fast !

 

[NWcityguy2]

I understand, RN have their place but it isn't in a defense rd, however, the guy paying the bill wants RN. He also likes +p, after doing some research here and other places it seems the only garentee is higher pressure and lower safety, couldn't I just use a faster burning powder like red dot, and still stay within the min/max tolerance. I guess I do not understand the why behind +p in a non comp setting.

Does he have a way to pressure test the loads you deliver to him?