Welcome, UWstudent. I only have one disagreement with you about your post, that being the implementation of the .45. In the Phillipines, the adoption of the .45 was actually a return to the projectile and ballistics proven by the .45 LC which was used primarily against Indians. I like the .45, but for a defensive gun, I don't feel undergunned with a 9MM since faster shots under control are possible. I go for the multiple hit theory, the faster the better. My 9MM allows me to carry 18 in the gun with a proven dependable Ramline magazine, and so makes reloads less of a potential problem. Either is just fine with me, as is .38 or .357 revolver. I carry .38 special in both for defense, simply because of the quicker multiple hit theory.
9mm vs .45 ;P
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The Crazy Gobbo
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The one shot bit.
I too am new, at least to pistol shooting, but this irks me just enough that I'd like to post.
Acting in self defense you do not have the same luxury a hunter has in determining if you need to fire again. While obviously focusing on every shot, isn't there a thought that sticks with you as you draw your gun, I'm going to fire at least three times before I take mind of anything else, eh? Pistol bullets, of any caliber, though mechanically reliable, produce fickle results when interacting witht the human body, no? A single bullet will not yield reliable results in my opinion.
I think it is foolish to count on having an extra half second after your first shot to see if you need to fire again. But, I don't know, so I ask.
I too am new, at least to pistol shooting, but this irks me just enough that I'd like to post.
Acting in self defense you do not have the same luxury a hunter has in determining if you need to fire again. While obviously focusing on every shot, isn't there a thought that sticks with you as you draw your gun, I'm going to fire at least three times before I take mind of anything else, eh? Pistol bullets, of any caliber, though mechanically reliable, produce fickle results when interacting witht the human body, no? A single bullet will not yield reliable results in my opinion.
I think it is foolish to count on having an extra half second after your first shot to see if you need to fire again. But, I don't know, so I ask.
BHPshooter
Member
The Crazy Gobbo said:The one shot bit.
I too am new, at least to pistol shooting, but this irks me just enough that I'd like to post.
Acting in self defense you do not have the same luxury a hunter has in determining if you need to fire again. While obviously focusing on every shot, isn't there a thought that sticks with you as you draw your gun, I'm going to fire at least three times before I take mind of anything else, eh? Pistol bullets, of any caliber, though mechanically reliable, produce fickle results when interacting witht the human body, no? A single bullet will not yield reliable results in my opinion.
I think it is foolish to count on having an extra half second after your first shot to see if you need to fire again. But, I don't know, so I ask.
I agree wholeheartedly -- if you're afraid enough for your life to fire your gun, then it seems only sensible to use enough force to make sure that they stop what they're doing.
But hey, that's just me.
Wes
CAS700850
Member
And, yet again, the 9mm vs. .45ACP debate rears its ugly head. Can't we all just get along? Can't we all recognize that any handgun beats an empty hand in a combat stuation? Can't we recognize that, just as some prefer scotch to vodka, trucks to sports cars, Harleys to cafe racers, blondes to brunettes, some prefer 9mm to .45. Heck, for that matter, what about those of us who shoot 9mm because of the gun, not necessarily the caliber? Can't we all just be friends? If not for us, at least for the children.
Wow, this is great. A new poster states some opinions, doesn't ask a question, and the debate is on. It almost motivates me to go to a car forum and express some opinions about the Miata and the Corvette.
One thing I like about THR is that a poster like Working Man helps keep us what we are without a moderator having to chime in. This does tend to be an educated board with posters that show mutual respect. It is also one that tends to be pretty patient with newbies, which is refreshing in the gun world.
I have used the search function a number of times, but I must say it is fun to read a new thread on an old subject.
Again UWstudent did not ask a question, so why the rant about the discussion?
Here is my $.02: I am a collector and it is my goal to have pistols and revolvers in many different calibers. I do have more 45's and 9mm's than anything else, except maybe .22's. Why, because they are classic calibers and there are so many varieties of handguns out there.
Once I get my CCW permit, I have many choices depending on conditions. It might be the Kel-Tec P32 when I am on a training run. It might be the Glock G30 (or the G36 that I don't have yet) or the Kahr P9 at other times. A BG was stopped by a runner in my neighborhood with his 25 cal.
For HD, it might be the Ruger KP90DC in one bedroom safe, or the S&W Sigma 40 cal in another room.
At the range, it might be the KP90DC, or the Colt Sistema, or the Beretta 92FS or the FN Hi Power in 40 cal., or....
So many choices, so little time. poppy
One thing I like about THR is that a poster like Working Man helps keep us what we are without a moderator having to chime in. This does tend to be an educated board with posters that show mutual respect. It is also one that tends to be pretty patient with newbies, which is refreshing in the gun world.
I have used the search function a number of times, but I must say it is fun to read a new thread on an old subject.
Again UWstudent did not ask a question, so why the rant about the discussion?
Here is my $.02: I am a collector and it is my goal to have pistols and revolvers in many different calibers. I do have more 45's and 9mm's than anything else, except maybe .22's. Why, because they are classic calibers and there are so many varieties of handguns out there.
Once I get my CCW permit, I have many choices depending on conditions. It might be the Kel-Tec P32 when I am on a training run. It might be the Glock G30 (or the G36 that I don't have yet) or the Kahr P9 at other times. A BG was stopped by a runner in my neighborhood with his 25 cal.
For HD, it might be the Ruger KP90DC in one bedroom safe, or the S&W Sigma 40 cal in another room.
At the range, it might be the KP90DC, or the Colt Sistema, or the Beretta 92FS or the FN Hi Power in 40 cal., or....
So many choices, so little time. poppy
I like .45ACP and I like 9MM Parbellum/Luger/NATO. I also like .357 Mag and .44 Mag (occassionally). None of these calibers are "better" than the others, they're just different.
I probably own more .45ACP weapons than any other caliber, Colt, Springfield, Kimber, Wilson Combat and Les Baer. Then there's that Glock G21 -- yeah, those too.
My latest buy is a Glock G19 and I bought it not because I decided that 9MM was suddenly better than .45ACP, but because 9MM NATO has better ballistics than 9MM Kurz (aka .380/9MM Browning). G19 is a bit bigger than your typical .380, but I prefer the Glock trigger to the mushy DA/SA trigger I found in most .380's. Next time at the range I'll let the G19 go head-to-head with my Kimber Compact for shootability. I've hit man size paper at 100 yds with the Kimber, so it should be interesting -- an excellent SA trigger in .45 vs a Glock trigger in 9MM.
I probably own more .45ACP weapons than any other caliber, Colt, Springfield, Kimber, Wilson Combat and Les Baer. Then there's that Glock G21 -- yeah, those too.
My latest buy is a Glock G19 and I bought it not because I decided that 9MM was suddenly better than .45ACP, but because 9MM NATO has better ballistics than 9MM Kurz (aka .380/9MM Browning). G19 is a bit bigger than your typical .380, but I prefer the Glock trigger to the mushy DA/SA trigger I found in most .380's. Next time at the range I'll let the G19 go head-to-head with my Kimber Compact for shootability. I've hit man size paper at 100 yds with the Kimber, so it should be interesting -- an excellent SA trigger in .45 vs a Glock trigger in 9MM.
oldschool
Member
Janitor
CZ's I'm not talking about knock-offs, the local specimens around here that I have seen in gun shops & competitions have been; Jam-o-matics, very coarse slide actions and visibly poor machining. I love the CZ’s and if I find an older one for a good price when I go to get a 9mm I may buy one but newer CZ’s like Kimber’s with external extractors are not on the “approved list.” I may have a problem with the local CZ sample population but the “new” CZ in the shops today are qualitatively less gun than the ones I loved in the late 80’s early 90’s IMHO.
CZ's I'm not talking about knock-offs, the local specimens around here that I have seen in gun shops & competitions have been; Jam-o-matics, very coarse slide actions and visibly poor machining. I love the CZ’s and if I find an older one for a good price when I go to get a 9mm I may buy one but newer CZ’s like Kimber’s with external extractors are not on the “approved list.” I may have a problem with the local CZ sample population but the “new” CZ in the shops today are qualitatively less gun than the ones I loved in the late 80’s early 90’s IMHO.
The Real Hawkeye
member
Don't let the grammar critique turn you off. As for myself, I actually appreciate when someone corrects my grammar, and I'm an old dude. It's how you discover errors that you are making, that you may not have even known about. You should strive for perfection in grammar, as in all things, even if you never quite make it.
As for the topic, I carry a .45, but I must admit that I shoot a 9mm better. As for relative stopping power, assuming equally good shot placement, the .45 wins. It makes bigger holes.
As for the topic, I carry a .45, but I must admit that I shoot a 9mm better. As for relative stopping power, assuming equally good shot placement, the .45 wins. It makes bigger holes.
jeremywills
Member
Grrrr makes me want to go out and try and find a .45 I can handle so I can have both like some of you folks and end this debate once and for all, why choose, just carry both. Each are a primary and a BUG, depending on the situation you can determine which to pull accordingly.
Just kidding, ahh interesting reading these Something Vs Something posts become.
Just kidding, ahh interesting reading these Something Vs Something posts become.
garyk/nm
Member
Kinda looks like y'all scared him/her off. Too bad; we need all the friends we can get.
Former UW student, class of 85
GO HUSKIES!
Former UW student, class of 85
GO HUSKIES!
The Real Hawkeye
member
Hey, y'all is not in the dictionarry fella!'garyk/nm said:
Nio
Member
The one question...
...that I can't seem to get a straight answer on from anybody is this:
If I shoot the average person with a .45, and then I shoot the average person in the exact same spot with a 9mm, is one person really going to die any slower?
Nio
...that I can't seem to get a straight answer on from anybody is this:
If I shoot the average person with a .45, and then I shoot the average person in the exact same spot with a 9mm, is one person really going to die any slower?
Nio
Phyphor
Member
Steelharp said:
I see the future...it is becoming clearer... I see a padlock materializing next to this threads name....
84B20
Member
I prefer the .45, especially my S&W 4516, the small but fairly heavy frame makes it easy to conceal and has little recoil.
The other thing to think about is what a prosecutor will do when confronted with a case in which the shooter puts 15 rounds in an assailant, no matter what the circumstances are.
Black Majik
Member
I gotta put in the mandatory quote in every 9mm vs. 45 thread.
"A 9mm might expand but a .45 will never shrink"
Ok... carry on....
"A 9mm might expand but a .45 will never shrink"
Ok... carry on....
MCgunner
Member
This arguement is way tired... I like my 9 for carry. I have a .45, also, but it's a duty size gun, a Ruger P90. 9s are effective and come in smaller, lighter packages. I like the compacts for carry. I've been thinking of a compact .45, but think it'd be wasting money 'cause I really like the 9s size. There is no .45 that is as small as my 9, nor as light and handy, and that 9 is quite accurate. If I get another carry gun, that SP101 thread has suddenly given me the hots for a 3+" barrel SP101 in one of my favorite combat handgun calibers, the .357 magnum. That makes more sense to me than going to the compact .45 'cause it'd be more useful as an outdoor gun as well as for carry. Besides, I love revolvers. Real men like magnum revolvers. I still have a copy of the original "Dirty Harry".
I have not found the 9 to be more accurate than the .45. Frankly, I've found the opposite. The bigger pill seems to have more inherent accuracy in the .45s and 9s I've owned and shot over the years. It's also a lot easier to handload for, though casting 200 grain SWC .45 bullets will eat up a pound of lead a lot faster.
I like my 9 for carry. I have a .45, also, but it's a duty size gun, a Ruger P90. 9s are effective and come in smaller, lighter packages. I like the compacts for carry. I've been thinking of a compact .45, but think it'd be wasting money 'cause I really like the 9s size. There is no .45 that is as small as my 9, nor as light and handy, and that 9 is quite accurate. If I get another carry gun, that SP101 thread has suddenly given me the hots for a 3+" barrel SP101 in one of my favorite combat handgun calibers, the .357 magnum. That makes more sense to me than going to the compact .45 'cause it'd be more useful as an outdoor gun as well as for carry. Besides, I love revolvers. Real men like magnum revolvers. I still have a copy of the original "Dirty Harry".I have not found the 9 to be more accurate than the .45. Frankly, I've found the opposite. The bigger pill seems to have more inherent accuracy in the .45s and 9s I've owned and shot over the years. It's also a lot easier to handload for, though casting 200 grain SWC .45 bullets will eat up a pound of lead a lot faster.
MCgunner
Member
Black Majik said:I gotta put in the mandatory quote in every 9mm vs. 45 thread.
"A 9mm might expand but a .45 will never shrink"
Ok... carry on....
Good arguement in 1845.....
Black Majik
Member
MCgunner said:Good arguement in 1845.....
LOL.... I wasn't serious at all. It was just in jest because of all the 9 vs 45 threads we get.
MCgunner
Member
Black Majik said:
I'm NEVER serious on an arguement like this one. It seems everyone "KNOWS" the answer, so it's just a matter of teasing the other side. 
MCgunner
Member
Biker said:It's a valid argument now. Can you dispute the statement?
Biker
I don't think .1" of extra diameter gives the .45 any major advantage in delivering its roughly 350 ft lbs over the 9's roughly 350 ft lbs without expansion. AND, the 9s higher velocity will allow its bullets to open more reliably. The expansion of the bullet aids in energy transfer on target. You can have 1800 ft lbs of energy, but you have to get that energy transfered to tissue. Of course, with that much energy it's more a moot point, but you get my logic here.
When I do carry .45, I carry the Speer 200 grain "flying ash trays", not ball. ammo. Hopefully, that thing has such a hole in the front of it, it'll expand even plodding along at its 900 ft/sec.
But, if I get that 3" Ruger SP101, no one seems to deny the .357s effectiveness, not even the big bore freaks. It is but .002" larger than a 9 (.355"). But, a 125 grain hollowpoint stepping out of that little cannon at 1400 ft/sec delivering in the 500+ ft/lb energy range is a rather deadly combination. Even so, they bash the 115 grain 9mm +P at right at 1200 fps out of my 3" compact. Go figure. That +P is up in the 400 ft/lb range for energy, pretty decent. It's no .357, though.
Darth Ruger
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- Jul 30, 2005
- Messages
- 525
Ditto. Ignore the English professors. Some people just can't be nice to a new guy until they've had their first cup of coffee in the morning. Welcome aboard.
Tomcat1066
Member
I'm gonna chime in here with a few of my observations/opinions on the whole caliber debate. Take them for what you will:
1. It's a handgun. No caliber is ideal.
2. It's all give and take. You either chose a round or you don't based on YOUR feelings about it. Anyone who doesn't like it should just deal.
3. Placement is key. It's been said in this thread a hundred times, but it bears repeating again. It doesn't matter WHAT you shoot, if it doesn't hit the target in the right spot, you're still in a world of pooh.
4. The lower you go one the power scale, the more important placement seems to be.
5. It doesn't matter what you shoot, as long as you hit the bad guy and not some innocent bystander. If you do hit the innocent, then there's a good chance of a world of hurt. Not just for you, but possibly for all of us.
6. Practice, practice, practice. How else are you going to get the placement right.
Just my thoughts. For the record, I'm a 9mm guy. I'm more comfortable shooting it, and it does everything I want to do. Nothing against the .45 though, it's not exactly a rough round to shoot
Tom
1. It's a handgun. No caliber is ideal.
2. It's all give and take. You either chose a round or you don't based on YOUR feelings about it. Anyone who doesn't like it should just deal.
3. Placement is key. It's been said in this thread a hundred times, but it bears repeating again. It doesn't matter WHAT you shoot, if it doesn't hit the target in the right spot, you're still in a world of pooh.
4. The lower you go one the power scale, the more important placement seems to be.
5. It doesn't matter what you shoot, as long as you hit the bad guy and not some innocent bystander. If you do hit the innocent, then there's a good chance of a world of hurt. Not just for you, but possibly for all of us.
6. Practice, practice, practice. How else are you going to get the placement right.
Just my thoughts. For the record, I'm a 9mm guy. I'm more comfortable shooting it, and it does everything I want to do. Nothing against the .45 though, it's not exactly a rough round to shoot
Tom
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