9mm vs. .45 - not for defense!

[MrBorland]

benatilstate -

I'm a big believer in the .22LR, but I think it comes down to what you're really wanting: If you're just looking to send some lead downrange, and get a big headrush from it, sure, the .22's a joke. Go for the 9mm, .45 or even a .44mag. However, if you think you'd also like to become a decent shooter in the process, you'll need to practice a lot, so get a .22LR and focus on the basics first. True, you'll have to adjust to some recoil when you make the switch, but there's much more to accurate shooting than handling recoil. To shoot any gun accurately, you'll have to develop good sight, trigger and breath control, and you do this by practice, practice and practice. The price of .22LR ammo is such that you can practice much more, while not picking up bad habits (like flinching) in the process. If you read a few threads about which round is best for SD, invariably, someone will point out that shot placement is key, and shot placement = accuracy.

When I started shooting, I spent a few months just shooting a .22, focusing on the basics. One day, a guy at the range, disgusted with his "inaccurate" Glock, asked if I'd like to try it (a "real" gun). I'd only ever shot a centerfire pistol once before, so sure, why not. Like a lot of others, he absolutely peppered his target with what looked to be random shots, so it was hard to find a clean spot. Nonetheless, I took my time, focused hard on the front sight, ignored the recoil, and put 8 rounds through a single hole. Secretly, I was surprised, but not nearly as surprised as that guy. Today, I still shoot a lot of rimfire. My rimfire:centerfire ratio is about 6:1. It's about the only way I feel I can get enough practice without going bankrupt.

Since you're leaning toward eventually getting a 9mm, consider a semi-auto .22. On the other hand, I love revolvers, and becoming a good shot with a revolver (shooting DA, of course), is very satisfying. If you can swing it, you could get the 9mm as well. If you do the majority of your shooting with the .22LR, the savings from the .22ammo could pay for the .22 pistol pretty quickly.

 

[Shear_stress]

I agree wholeheartedly with MrBorland. Nothing teaches the basics of handgun marksmanship like a good .22 LR semi-auto or revolver. Is .22 LR a joke? Ask any Bullseye shooter. To me, the real joke is the shooter so focussed on "busting caps" that the bullets they send downrange can barely find their targets. I see these folks at the range every week. Moral of the story: get the fundamentals of shooting down first.

As for the eternal 9mm vs. [insert favorite handgun cartridge here] debate, the reason why this continues to be debated is because of the lack of real-world evidence that definitively shows one round to have a significant advantage over another. A lot of the fuel for the contraversy comes from anecdotal evidence that is all over the map and can be used selectively to bolster any argument you like. As a reality check, a .40 bullet is 0.045" (less than 1/16") wider than a 9mm and has 0.027 square inch greater projected frontal area. Velocity and bullet weight probably have more to do with cartridge "effectiveness" (however that would be quantified), and, even then, handgun bullets tend to operate at relatively slow velocities.

Shoot what you shoot best.

 

[gandog56]

The very first pistol I ever purchased was a Ruger Mark II .22. Now I have things like 44 mags, 10mm's and stuff that will definately make you flinch the first few times. My second pistol was a .357 mag revolver, that I mostly shot 38 special DEWC's out of to shoot cheaply. It's the round that started me into reloading, which is another whole subject.

 

[S&Wfan]

Let me offer you a different view (on some issues) . . .

Definately go with a .22 auto first. I'd recommend a Ruger. They are relatively cheap and very accurate.

The huge amount of money you'll save by shooting .22 ammo will soon more than pay for a cenerfire auto . . . and by then you'll have been exposed to lots of autos on the range, if your area is like mine. This will help you make the BEST centerfire handgun choice for YOU.

By that time you'll have the experience to know what grip size and what type centerfire automatic will fit you best!!!

Also, as others have said, you'll develop better shooting technique shooting a rimfire vs. possibly developing a flinch with a centerfire pistol.

ANOTHER THING TO CONSIDER FROM THE BEGINNING . . .

Also, on your shooting excursions with your .22, pick up all the abandoned new centerfire brass that's left on the range in any caliber you may be considering later.

By the time you buy your centerfire auto, you can purchase an inexpensive reloading press (like a Lee turret press) . . . pick up some quality, but very low cost lead bullets in your preferred centerfire size at a gun show, buy a few boxes of primers and a pound of powder . . . and you are good to go in the reloading department.

Reloading is the only way to go for someone who plans on shooting a lot. You save your centerfire brass (which is the biggest cost in a new round) and it gets very cheap to shoot a lot. Plus . . . if the gun-banning nuts ever get their way and start regulating ammo instead of grabbing guns well . . . a couple of pounds of gunpower, a few thousand primers and some bullets will fit the bill quite well!

GET A 9MM NEXT! NOT! Sure, if you are still prone to recoil, a 9mm might make initial sense, but once you've shot some, this will change.

I'm a .45ACP fan all the way. The recoil is actually very, very pleasant . . . with the recoil of a .45 being more of a firm PUSH vs. a visious, short sting like a .44, .357 . . . etc. So, recoil will NOT be a problem for you!

In many cases the .45ACP bullet weight is twice as much as a 9mm bullet . . . and the hole that it makes is much bigger (.451 of an inch vs. .356 of an inch). All else about the shot that's been taken being equal, the most effective round will be the one with a bigger hole and that whallops with more punch.

DO NOT BUY A GLOCK! If you are going to reload, the unsupported chamber of the Glocks is sheer hell on the brass cartridges, so these cartridges cannot be safely reloaded many times. Also, the special rifling method used by Glock will foul lead bullets. Diehard Glock shooters who reload get around this problem by purchasing an aftermarket barrel with a supported chamber and conventional rifling.

If you never plan to reload, the Glock is a very, very fine choice!

THE BERETTA 9mm is a fine handgun . . . but the huge grip size makes it hard to shoot well for shooters with small hands. Really, a huge gun like this shooting such a pussycat cartridge is a little "overkill" in the size department. It also conceals poorly due to it's huge size.

I see the smaller 9mm handguns, made for the CCW (concealed carry) market to be the proper niche market for the 9mm cartridge.

Then again, my light, little aluminum-framed Kimber .45ACP conceals just about as well as any smaller automatic . . . and it still a really great fighting round.

Food for thought,

T.

 

[Tom Fury]

2 cents worth

As you do more shooting and train your eye hand etcetera and develop confidence, I think your perception about this question will change. I agree with all about the .22 while you're training in.

The Beretta is a "good" (where would gunwriters be without that word?) reliable, accurate piece to start Self defense shooting/thinking with, but your taste will change as your experience/confidence grows so I wouldn't try too hard to solve the "one gun" equation at this point; God knows none of us have yet...

a MIMber...that was funny...

Welcome to THR: Where all opinions are always loaded...
Scary but not dangerous, Cheers, TF

 

[gudel]

if there's one for defense, which one is for offense?

 

[jad0110]

Why not go for a .22 revolver to compliment a 9mm semi-auto? Then you have 2 nice guns and you can shoot both for cheap to get plenty of practice time which is a good thing for newer shooters. I think that'd be ideal for your college budget.

Phantom you read my mind! I will probably get a taurus tracker 970 in .22.

Being that 9mm is the cheapest center fire cartridge (and effective for self-defense with good HP ammo), I cannot fault your logic in caliber choice for a semi auto. On the revolver side, 38 Special is a great bet, although ammo is costlier than 9mm.

Sounds like you are on the right track with the 22. 22 at Walley World sells for $10 for 550 rounds. Everyone needs at least one good 22, be it a revolver or a semi-auto. I used to be too much of a man for the "lowly" 22. I know now I was just being foolish. I do like DA 22 revolvers, as they are great tools for teaching trigger control and sight alignment on the cheap. I hear the Taurus 970s are pretty good guns. I used to own a Taurus 94 - which seems to be either good or bad. Mine was bad, so I'd spend the few extra bucks on the 970.

Also, keep your eyes open for used Ruger SP101s in 22LR (there are a few out there). Or better yet, a used S&W 617 or Model 17/18 K-22 Masterpiece. Many regard the S&W K-22 M17 (mostly 6" or 8 3/8" barrels) or M18 (4") as S&W's crowning achievement; one of the finest handguns ever made. They can be a little pricey, but they are a pure joy to shoot. Very accurate and finely crafted. I will NEVER let go of my K-22, Model 17-0.

My K-22 may be nearly 50 years old, but it is a fine shooter and my favorite range companion on every outing:

 

[Geronimo45]

Go ahead and get a Beretta - they're pretty good guns, with a pretty good reputation for reliability and accuracy.
You can buy .22 conversion kits for them - just switch slides and magazines and you've got a .22 pistol.

These folks have one:
http://www.22lrconversions.com/ber-pg.htm

Personally, I think .22 conversion kits are superior to plain ol' .22 pistols in some ways. Recoil is very different, but all the controls are the same - safety, decocker, trigger pull, magazine release.

 

[Surefire]

If money is an issue, the 9mm wins.

I prefer the .45 for pure shooting enjoyment, but I admit that the 9mm is better for most people.

 

[peacemaker45]

For your purposes, the .45 doesn't really have anything to offer you, much as i hate to say it. The only thing cheaper to shoot than 9MM, is, as everybody and their brother has already mentioned, a .22 LR.

My only other suggestion is to check out a CZ75 before you actually plunk down currency for that beretta. Unless you've got real bear paws, that is. In my experience, the cz is a much better fit for most folks, and usually edges out the beretta in accuracy, as well.

~~~Mat

 

[1 old 0311]

Go with a 9, and go with a CZ. Both good choices.

 

[DennisE]

Everywhere I've lived there has been a commercial reloader nearby and/or large gun shows where reloads can be purchased in bulk. I've shot many 10s of 1000s of such reloads at ranges without a problem or a hiccup. Current price if you recycle your brass is around 10 cents/round. Dennis

 

[Bob79]

I just bought several S&W .22lr revolvers. I almost bought a .22 mag, but the ammo is about twice as much. You can't got wrong with a S&W Model 18, 63, 317, 617, or 17.

Other than that 9mm is great, for the range its the cheapest autoloading round to buy. And it makes an excellent house gun with good 120-130 grain JHP +P ammunition with most guns holding 12-17 rounds of ammo.

 

[Mad Magyar]

Just one more + for the 9mm with the needs you stated....Since I'm not a reloader, I've found myself shooting more of the lesser calibers due to the cost differential....Ammo prices are going crazy and it's reached the point where it might start to restrict the number of times I go out.
With you residing in Illinois, I realize your restrictions go beyond just basic economics....Good luck...

 

[Wozzer]

I remember getting my first hand gun a few years ago and can share some info:
1) If it's for fun, get a .22LR --> ammo is literally orders of magnitude cheaper and recoil isn't a problem. This will help you develop great technique and prevent you from developing "flinch" (which develops as a startle response to the loud bang you "know" is coming when you pull the trigger)
2) Recoil is going to be way more dependent on the gun you choose - also consider that there are two types of recoil. There is the force going straight back through the palm of your hand. Then there is the torque that comes from the fact the bullet is pushing out the chamber/barrel at the TOP of the gun, causing the muzzle to rise, and this must be controlled with your fingers. The key is to get a gun with a nice heavy steel frame. If you get an alloy frame with steel slide, you're going to end up with a bunch of torque recoil even with a 9mm, and this makes shooting way less fun.
3) I own a Beretta 92FS, I love it, but the torque recoil makes it a bad first gun
4) Leave reloads alone for now, when you're new you don't want to question whether your ammo is good quality, and you just can't trust reloads as much as decent commercial ammo. As a new pistol shooter you might end up jamming your gun a bunch because you let the recoil rotate the pistol, causing the slide to lose pistol-rear (not environmental-rear) momentum, and then you'll feel like a jackass and start hating shooting
5) I have a .22, 9mm, and .45 - I always shoot the .22 when I go to the range because it's just so much damn fun. The other ones I'm always limited by hand pain eventually

PS. If I were to do it all over, I would by the .22 first, then the .45, then the 9mm.

 

[glockarmourer40517]

countless 1000s of used police glock and otherwise 9mm were traded in for glock and other Mfg. .40SW and .45 for a reason.

countless 1000s of deadly encounters by police have proved the 9mm, across the board, including exotic HP ammo, to have too high a AIT (average incapacitation time).

the average "gun idiot" says something pathetic like "plenty O' people been killed with 9mm,...heck, even a .22LR"

this is true, AND irrelavent.....the point is LOW AIT, such that your opponent does not have XX ammount of time to return fire and kill you before he is incapacitated.

you can kill with a propperly placed BB, thats not the point either, killing someone isnt the point either, but quick incapacitation (ie LOW AIT).

the common 'gun dufus' does not use logic in his reasoning.

if your killer is slowly dying from 5 9mm holes in him, and has plenty of time to return fire and kill you as well........then killing your killer has given no benefit.

gun fools rarely consider quick-incapacitation.

as regards this, the 9mm is a reject by a very vast number of police forces.


why on earth did you THINK youve seen 100,000 used 9mm ex-cop glocks for sale from CDNN and other gun wholesalers for the past 5 years???

think.

 

[MrBorland]

think.

Read.

The OP expressly said this gun would be for fun, not defense.