9x18 defense ammo?

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Inquisitive?

Nope, I look at facts. If you think that because 2 out of the 5 rounds he tested are still able to be purchased, and so his tests are representative, I would dissagree.

But back to the CorBon better than FMJ - am I dealing with a politician here?
 
well, i tried to be friendly about it, but i can see you'd rather take the low road. that's fine.

i can't find the makarov ballistic tests i was referring too, for some reason google's image search isn't working at the moment.

however, here's an explanation (that prob still won't satisfy you). i would prefer powerball over fmj because even a little expansion at typical self defense distances is more preferable for me than no expansion.


just to mention for everyone too, Buffalo bore is coming out with 2 new makarov loads for 2010, and they look interesting:

9X18 Makarov+P----Velocities derived from 4 inch Mak pistols
95gr. JHP@ 1125 fps
115gr. Hard cast-FN@1000 fps
Click to expand...

a heavy cast bullet is very interesting in this caliber....
 
FMJ, I don't think I'm unfriendly, or "Taking the low road". But I just asked 4 times the same question on how you derived your opinion about CorBon JHP vs FMJ. Four times.

When christcorp stated the FMJ would expand at 20 feet I asked him too for his data. I'm just looking for data. So many people post opinions on the internet. Sometimes, some of them do have actual data to back up opinions and that's what I seek. I don't care if the data is derived from shooting ice or old tennis shoes, it's all good.

Inquisitive, yes.

Ok, if my posts come across as somewhat "inquisitional" (is that a word? - I'm trying to say harsh cricicism) - I do apologize. I am interested in the ballistic performance of these low-caliber rounds, so when people make positve statements I tend to to jump to the conclusion that they have supporting info that i would like to see shared.
 
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i actually answered your inquiry with a vague reply in my first post, and then answered with why i can't find the photos in my last post...along with a more specific explanation. you can research things the same way as me & everyone else. google. (if it's working for you right now that is...).

i even provided pics of makarov expansion tests that you discounted for some unknown reason. this is the internet. you want "hard evidence"? watch CSI Miami. it's obvious you're simply trolling for an argument. good luck with your endeavors.

;)
 
"i even provided pics of makarov expansion tests that you discounted for some unknown reason." "it's obvious you're simply trolling for an argument."

Sorry, that's not the case here.
 
I ordered those JHP Silver Bear loads Thursday morning from http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/ . I'd never ordered from these guys before, but I will again! They're about 120 miles up the road from me in Brenham, Texas. I got home from work Friday afternoon and they were sitting on my door step! ONE DAY shipping for the ground rate. :D

I don't have time to test them until maybe Sunday, so I won't carry it until I do, that load, anyway. They have a nice FMJ profile, looks like they should function well. The hollow cavity is pretty wide, too. If this stuff shoots well, it's good 'nuf for me.

Thanks for all the replies. There really isn't much variety in 9x18, I've learned, at least not when you're used to 9x19 or .38 or .357. But, the ammo is cheap, imported stuff, anyway. I will shoot this JHP stuff even for practice, only 2 or 3 bucks higher than the FMJ loads, though I can buy the FMJ stuff at Academy for under 10 bucks.

Reloading for it is a pain, though, lack of brass. Trimming 9x19 sounded like a good idea until I sat down to do it. It'll be faster if I can find my Lee arbor to chuck in my drill. I bought this Lee Zip Trim and while it works, it takes longer and is a PITA compared to the drill mounted Lee trimmer system. I just figured when I ordered it that it'd be harder to lose. I've lost several of those arbors now. :banghead: Anyway, I have 50 rounds primed, need to cast some bullets for it and go test some practice reloads, too. At least reloading gives me the option if I can't immediately find ammo. No need to mess with my progressives in this caliber, though. I have the feeling that I'll be shooting more factory than reload, but I will get yet another arbor for my trimming. That'll make cutting down 9x19 brass less a hassle.
 
MCgunner said:
I ordered those JHP Silver Bear loads Thursday morning from http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/ . I'd never ordered from these guys before, but I will again! They're about 120 miles up the road from me in Brenham, Texas. I got home from work Friday afternoon and they were sitting on my door step! ONE DAY shipping for the ground rate. :D
Click to expand...

MC, if you don't mind me asking, what did they charge you for shipping? I called them yesterday and inquired about shipping to OH for 2 box of Silver Bear HP, 100 rounds. I don't want to buy a bunch till I know it will shoot out of my CZ82 .......She said around $14.00 :eek:

I just bought 20 boxes, 1000 rounds of Silver Bear FMJ from SMG and shipping was only $17.00 and that was with other misc. items. Unfortunately SMG doesn't have the HP in stock right now. :banghead:
 
North Bender: Sorry for not responding. I must have passed over your question. I've done a lot of research on the makarov. (I'm really into military and police calibers throughout history). I've concluded the effectiveness of the makarov caliber through numerous web sites with info. Here are some of them.

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/makarov.html
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/SelfProtectionLoads.htm (go about 1/3 down on the page for the 9x18 XTP and Barnaul)

There's also plenty of accounts, most non-scientific, of people doing their own tests in water jugs, wet phone books, etc... I've done tests in water jugs, and it's penetrated at least 3 jugs and did expand. So I am quite satisfied with the reports. And the reasons why many european countries used this caliber is also a reason I like it. Sorry again for not responding earlier. It wasn't intentional.
 
MC, if you don't mind me asking, what did they charge you for shipping? I called them yesterday and inquired about shipping to OH for 2 box of Silver Bear HP, 100 rounds. I don't want to buy a bunch till I know it will shoot out of my CZ82 .......She said around $14.00
Click to expand...

It's only 120 miles and they charged me 10 bucks and change shipping, plus I had to pay state sales tax. So, that's a bit of a rip off, but I can't complain about shipping time. :D I think I'll hold off ordering anymore until I can afford 500 rounds of the stuff. I don't think shipping will be a lot more for 500 rounds, spread the price per round a bit. On the good side, some of the best pricing I've found on the Silver Bear.

I just got back from the range and cleaned the P64. She shot 100 rounds flawlessly, as if ball ammo, so I'm happy with the stuff. I've got a box left for carry loads. As I won't likely carry it all THAT much, that should do. Managed a 3.5Wx3"H group at 25 yards with it and it shot just maybe an inch higher. That could have been lighting on the sights. Close enough, to the ball, not a problem, quite accurate. I did some quick point shooting from 3 and 7 yards. The little pistol points well. Good thing as the sights are tiny and hard to acquire. Wearing a shooting glove makes this thing a little more fun. My hand isn't sore. I don't know why that little thing has so much muzzle flip, but it's worse than my 14 ounce 9x19 Kel Tec P11 shooting +P stuff. Weird.
 
MCgunner said:
It's only 120 miles and they charged me 10 bucks and change shipping, plus I had to pay state sales tax. So, that's a bit of a rip off, but I can't complain about shipping time. :D I think I'll hold off ordering anymore until I can afford 500 rounds of the stuff. I don't think shipping will be a lot more for 500 rounds, spread the price per round a bit. On the good side, some of the best pricing I've found on the Silver Bear.

I just got back from the range and cleaned the P64. She shot 100 rounds flawlessly, as if ball ammo, so I'm happy with the stuff. I've got a box left for carry loads. As I won't likely carry it all THAT much, that should do. Managed a 3.5Wx3"H group at 25 yards with it and it shot just maybe an inch higher. That could have been lighting on the sights. Close enough, to the ball, not a problem, quite accurate. I did some quick point shooting from 3 and 7 yards. The little pistol points well. Good thing as the sights are tiny and hard to acquire. Wearing a shooting glove makes this thing a little more fun. My hand isn't sore. I don't know why that little thing has so much muzzle flip, but it's worse than my 14 ounce 9x19 Kel Tec P11 shooting +P stuff. Weird.
Click to expand...

I'm sure you're right about the shipping not being much more if you're buying 100 or 500.....Being a member at SMG and getting discounts and coupons I just figured I'd hold off and see if they get some HP in stock.

Got to shoot the CZ82 again yesterday an ran another 100 rounds of Silver Bear FMJ through it without a hitch. My buddy came over and was shooting his 82 also so we ran 200 rounds through those CZ's with no failures whatsoever. :)

We did some quick draw from concealed, point shooting at 7 yards and kept most shots in a 4" group, dead center. At 10yrd quick draw shooting, it got a little tougher with mostly. 6" groups and an occasional flier. Moving back to 25yrd with more careful aiming we're able to pop a 2lb coffee can on a stake, religiously.

I'm really starting to like these Mak caliber pistols and the P64 looks interesting too! I'm kind of a CZ guy so naturally I went with the 82 first. You ought to place yourself an order for the Wolff spring kit and see if that helps with muzzle flip and DA pull. Everything I've read about them indicates it makes quite a difference.

Have you checked out this link below? Lots of info there on the P64.

http://www.p64resource.com/
 
Got to shoot the CZ82 again yesterday an ran another 100 rounds of Silver Bear FMJ through it without a hitch. My buddy came over and was shooting his 82 also so we ran 200 rounds through those CZ's with no failures whatsoever.
Click to expand...

The Silver Bear hollow point has a very ball profile. It fed as well as the ball in my gun and hit just slightly higher. I did, however, order a small order to test as you want to. I'm quite happy with it as a choice for carry and this morning unloaded my Kel Tec and loaded the Radom just because.

I'm really starting to like these Mak caliber pistols and the P64 looks interesting too! I'm kind of a CZ guy so naturally I went with the 82 first. You ought to place yourself an order for the Wolff spring kit and see if that helps with muzzle flip and DA pull. Everything I've read about them indicates it makes quite a difference.
Click to expand...

The P64 is really compact, what I like about it, and unlike the PA63 is all steel, which I like, though I don't dislike the PA63 and would get one if I got a deal on one when I had money in my pocket. :D CZs are cool and I'd like one of those, too. I think the little P64 is easier to carry, smaller, though. It's pocketable, but only has a 6 round magazine. It's a good cheap alternative to the PPK and I think the round has a little more punch than .380 on the average, at least the European loads. The whole idea of the round was to be a little more than a .380, but still a blow back gun as I understand it.

Yeah, a spring kit is on the agenda soon. I think I can get it from midway, though I've yet to look. I ordered one for my SP101, but I think I got it directly off the Wolff site. I need to research that. But, I make midway orders for reloading stuff from time to time.

I also have the hots for wood grips from these folks. http://www.marschalgrips.com/?content=Polish_P-64-models I'm thinkin' those thumb rest grips would help the muzzle flip, though might be a little wider for concealment, don't know. Should ride okay, though. They're only 55 bucks.
 
I've a set of Marschal grips on my PA63...fast service and a beautiful product!
 

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I have a set of Marschal checkered walnut grips for my P64...I found they did not quite fit my hand right...I prefer the original plastic grips with a slip-on rubber butler creek grip.
In fact, I was thinking of putting my Marschals up for sale for $40. They have been put on my P64, but never shot with.
 
I did the spring kit (actually Wolff called it the P64 spring Pack) and it made a huge difference in the gun.. I went with the mid level recoil spring, and that was the biggest difference..
 
Christcorp.

It took me a while to get back here. I hope everybody is still enthused about the 9x18.

That is a great website you quoted:

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/makarov.html

They clarify the argument about momentum vs muzzle velocity (which is beyond what most people want to know but it gets to the heart of what I like to understand). So thanks for the link; they provide well presented ballistic info.

Here's a quote from Angelfire:

"Terminal Momentum, not initial momentum that is important. Lightweight rounds with a high muzzle energy and momentum may not have this when they reach the target."

That's why I question your comment about the effectiveness of the JHP rounds at 20 feet (especially the CorBon 70-grain which you mentioned). Personally, I like the heavier ball ammo that retains momentum.

But I fully recognize that it's a bit of hair splitting. If you're shot you're shot. A 69-caliber muzzle loader will pretty much take you out; pistols may not. That's my take. It is an interesting subject and has my scientific curiosity engaged.
 
Take that momentum stuff with a grain of salt. There are other opinions and theories of wound ballistics. In comparing .380 to 9x18, I don't think the target is going to know the difference. 9x19+P, you bet your bippy it's going to do more damage. It has a little more momentum, but a LOT more energy.

The TKO value that article mentions is IMHO total unadulterated bovine excretion. All you really need do is compare momentum and energy between the two, but the difference is so small I don't really think there's going to be a big difference in mak and .380 wounding or "stopping power", if you will. But, I wouldn't wanna be shot with either. Either round, if properly placed, will be terminal. What I do like about the Mak, though, is I think it gives a little more likelihood of acceptable penetration with expansion. The .380 is on the brink. Best loads I've seen for penetration with bullet expansion is the Hornady Personal Defense. It gives, according to Hornady, 10" of penetration in 10 percent jello. That's not quite the 12 I'd like to see. Brassfetcher has an interesting jello test of the Silver Bear hollow point on its site. They got expansion to over 50 cal. and penetration slightly over 12". That is quite decent and puts it a step ahead of the best .380 loads I've found, not FAR ahead, but a good step and it meets that 12" minimum penetration I want to see. It's enough to win me over to the caliber, put it that way. :D I never was quite comfortable with the .380. What helps, too, is that the Maks and P64 and PA63 are quite accurate, more accurate than most of these new age tiny .380s coming out which will do good to get a torso hit at 25 yards. This P64 I bought shoots 3" to 3.5" groups at 25 yards off the bench. That's surgical precision up close at defense ranges. I have confidence in a gun that shoots where I look. :D I really think that's more important than ballistics, to be frank.

Shot 3 : Silver Bear 115gr JHP. Impacted at 993 ft/sec, penetrated to 12.6" (corrected). Average diameter was 0.513". Track outlined in blue in picture.


9by18mmMak1a1.JPG



From...... http://www.brassfetcher.com/var9x18mm.html
 
That 115gr. 9x18 is not available anymore and is the only HP 9x18 that I've seen with decent penetration.

I'm not so sure I'm sold on the 9x18 in the available HP loads. Actually in most of the tests I've seen, the good .380 HP are penetrating deeper than the 9x18.....10-12" as compared to 7-8"......I suspect it's because the .380 are only opening up to about .45 or a little more. Whereas the 9x18 HP are opening up to .55-.60.....That's an impressive hole but it appears that is what's not allowing it to penetrate much deeper than 7-8" which is without a doubt questionable for anything other than an unobstructed frontal shot. What if it hits a metal button, zipper, hand, arm etc? :confused:

Right now I'm just running FMJ in my CZ82 but would like to try some HP.....If someone comes out with a 9x18 HP with controlled expansion of say .5-.53 and still get consistent penetration of 10" plus I'd feel confident with that load but for now I'm not really feeling that confident with what's available for the 9x18 HP

As far as FMJ goes......I definitely like the 9x18 better than the .380.....Bigger hole and more velocity = more punch!.....Just my .02 :)
 
Eh, even .45ACP is pathetic compared to 9x19 JHP in the street stats, about 60 percent vs near 90. Heck, I replaced a 1911 with a Ruger P90 cause the 1911 wouldn't feed ANY hollow point. The P90 fill feed anything. I still load it with a flying ashtray stash I have put back. I just don't care for FMJ in anything. There comes a point, though, where you might NEED it for penetration. I handload .380 with a sized 105 grain SWC with very sharp shoulder profile that feeds fantastic in my .380 and 9s. It's from a Lee mold. I worked up a load to around 220 ft lbs in .380 for it, but have never carried it. I've often thought it might be the answer to the .380, but they're coming out with better .380 loads now days. I've always carried a 90 grain XTP in it, though, never the SWC load.

For now, I'm going to stick to 94 grain Silver Bear JHP. It's accurate and 100 percent in the gun if nothing else. I don't see having any other than a frontal confrontation, either, and the gun is so accurate, head shots are not out of the question.
 
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