A Carjacking in Detroit- A true story. Read, comment, and contribute

[DetroitStudent]

Dear Friends on THR,

Yesterday I heard some horrible news- a friend of mine in Detroit, who is also a graduate student in engineering, was carjacked in downtown Detroit while buying groceries. I moved out of the city a year ago. Don't be fooled. The reports that crime, in particular violent crime, is decreasing is not accurate. The "heart of Detroit" might be getting better, but this includes only a few square miles. The real reason is because the the area is depopulating, and crime is spilling out into the suburbs etc.

The convenience store itself is right off an exit, and is very well lit. My friend is not a ccw owner or a gun owner for that matter.

Here's the story, it's about 9pm. It's evening, typical winter Michigan day. My friend goes to pick up some groceries at a convenience store that we have gotten groceries dozens of times. He's a good sized guy, 6'0, 200 lbs, 28 yrs old. Out of the corner of his eye he sees two young black males, not particularly intimidating, but thinking about it later he says one appeared nervous. He opens his trunk with his "clicker".

Right as he is throwing the groceries in, he notices the guys are right behind him. One guy pulls out a remington 870, pistol grip from under his coat (yeah, a shotgun guys, Im not making this up) the other guy pulls a knife. Friend is totally caught off guard. "Keys, wallet, cell phone, get on the ground face down and count to 100, if you move white boy I will "f***ing kill you. He does as they say. He tells them "I dont want any problems man Ive got kids" and complies. They speed off. A few minutes later he gets up and calls the cops. They of course dont find the car. So here's a few questions. Id appreciate your responses as I live approximately 9 miles away from where this happened.

1.) So we are all supposed to be in condition yellow, but if you went for your gun everytime a few minority males walked close to you there is little doubt you would be in prison pretty fast. Im all for the gut reaction, but any thoughts on this?

2.) As someone who lives in Detroit, there are alot of people on crack/other drugs. If you have seen any real Crackheads "Tweak" ie flinch, jerk, all the time. I'd be concerned about this if someone had a shotgun to my back and I tried anything besides what I was told to do that it would be all over. any thoughts/experiences?

3.) Would you do anything different if you were with your girlfriend/wife/kids? I dont know if I could look my wife in the face if some addict hurt any of us because I wouldnt give him the car keys. In my view, cars are replaceable, people are not


4.) This whole story got me me thinking, so many of us post our rifles, pistols, shotguns etc for home defense, but the likelihood of us being attacked at home is fairly small. Anyone have good suggestions for car setup? Any of you have pics? What you pack and where?

5.) The argument "man up or dont carry" doesnt fly with me. I have no problem with the idea of taking some violent person's life if they want to harm me or my family. That's why I carry. At the same time if I find myself outgunned and cornered, as my friend did, I dont want to try and be a hero. Is that wrong, letting the bad guys win? Or is that just a tactical retreat, so to speak? There are too many dead "good guys" in Detroit, and often times the bad guy wins. You just don't hear about those stories on the internet. I appreciate your thoughts

Thanks

-Anthony

 

[Odd Job]

Every situation is different. Can't be at the ready all the time, and under the circumstances it might well be that your friend did the right thing and couldn't get a better result.

 

[earlthegoat2]

It was a situation where a little bit of situational awareness went astray. If you are looking around and notice some fellows noticing you in Detroit, chances are they are noticing you for a reason. They got the jump on him whether he was carrying or not. That should never happen.

I used to live around Detroit but went to the city a lot. If I noticed anyone I didnt want to associate with eyeing me up I went to condition orange and used anything I could as as cover. If they came towards me I said "thats close enough" and everytime that was enough to send them looking for someone else.

Of course if you dont have a gun things get different. I just would not go to Detroit.

 

[Impureclient]

a friend of mine in Detroit.....it's about 9pm

That about sums up went wrong with the entire encounter.

 

[lions]

Right as he is throwing the groceries in, he notices the guys are right behind him.

Here is the problem. If he is already in that position, he has already failed at keeping himself safe.

ETA:

1.) So we are all supposed to be in condition yellow, but if you went for your gun everytime a few minority males walked close to you there is little doubt you would be in prison pretty fast.

You don't draw your gun in condition yellow. What you do in condition yellow is be aware of your surroundings and don't let yourself get put into a bad situation. At a gas station at night with two guys closing in, one of whom looks nervous, that would be a good time to move to condition orange. You recognize them as a specific threat and take action to avoid the situation. You only draw your gun in condition red, but when two guys are behind you with a shotgun it is entirely too late to move into condition red and fight back.

Here are Cooper's Color Codes:
http://www.teddytactical.com/SharpenBladeArticle/4_States%20of%20Awareness.htm

 

[Oyeboten]

Circumspect...whether or not one is armed.


Your friend was aware of the two men approaching, yet, allowed himself to open his Trunk and have his back to them.


This was an error in judgement which instantly compounded.


Best to elect courses of mundane action which do not include any fitting-the-bill-for-possible-problems male strangers being within 30-40 feet of one's momentary vulnerability.

Stall, adjust, hurry, or as may be, to avoid vulnerability.


Note how Wild Animals show circumspect when they drink Water...


Like that...

 

[General Geoff]

Looks like this scenario was stacked against your pal as soon as he left the convenience store.

He has his hands full with groceries, and is fumbling with his keyfob to open his trunk, etc etc

I think the smartest thing to do, as he was obviously in the parking lot alone, would have been to unlock the door, and pile in, groceries in hand, start the car and hi-tail it out of there. This is especially true since he was defenseless. His car is his most potent weapon, so getting the car in a running state with him behind the wheel should be top priority in such a vulnerable situation.


How many groceries did he have? Was he carrying it all in his hands, or did he have a cart full?

 

[Z-Michigan]

In my view, cars are replaceable, people are not

Wise and reasonable. Having a gun does not mean having to use it. It simply means another option. I think that you should always do whatever is most likely to keep innocent people from getting hurt, even if that means being the victim of a property crime. HOWEVER, you must also be careful about assumptions that cooperation will mean no one gets hurt. It is a daily occurrence for a mugged victim to cooperate and then get seriously hurt or killed. Your friend probably made the right decision to cooperate, but luck also plays a role.

With no offense intended, 9pm in Detroit for someone alone is a bad idea. It would still be a bad idea if he were armed, if he were an IPSC grand master, etc. I value my ability to carry (legally) and my training, but 99.99% of my safety is deciding when and where I should and should not go.

 

[JellyJar]

Good object lesson for us all. Trust your gut. Don't turn you back on a threat like that.

 

[shockwave]

The IPSC had this specific scenario during an event. The procedure was to unlock the car door, drop the groceries and use the door as cover while drawing. The takeaway there is drop the things that are slowing you down. If the two guys looked hinky, don't turn your back on 'em. Might not have helped in this specific situation but it's good general policy.

 

[7.62 Nato]

Situational awareness is the most important thing. If he was aware of them sooner he could react sooner which could have been as simple as walking back into the store. If he saw them but ignored it then it was a big tactical mistake. Avoiding a situation is usually the best option. If it can't be avoided then the next step is to try to control it. Without being there myself anything else would be wild speculation. Like alcoholism, the first step is admitting there is a problem.

 

[A2lockdown]

your friend made a good decision after he made a bad one

1) color codes or not, dont turn your back to anything that could be a threat, ever. train to be faster, stronger, and smarter - not just a better shot.

2) once someone has a gun to your back, usually best to do as you are told (unless you have your girl/kids in the car) - in this case, good choice

3) if they are gonna just leave with the stuff, let em go. chances are they will hurt anyone they take with them, so if family is going to be taken its all or nothing at that point. kill with a pen if you have to.

4) taurus has a .410 revolver called the JUDGE, often marketed for short distance/vehicle defence, never used it but seems like a good choice for a fight from the drivers seat. or put a holster on the side of the drivers seat and put your normal sidearm in when you get in the vehicle. if i was concerned about being attacked on the road, a 12g Rem. 870 TAC2 with black magic slugs, or marlin guide gun 45-70 would be behind the seat of my truck - cars and walls aint cover, and pass throughs are fine as long as they pass through the chest first

5) you said it yourself: cars are replaceable, people are not. thats how your family feels about you. the best gun fight is the one you dont get into.

 

[Geno]

Remember the attempted carjacking that happened directly across from the Detroit Police Department about 2 years back? It literally was across the street from the Detroit Police!! Talk about guts and no brains!

Anyhow, that was one of my friends who they attempted to carjack. This friend has very good situational awareness. He saw them immediately, but due to where he was, had to leave his Glock in his auto. He sprinted to his car, and the perps on his 6. As he sat and retrieved the Glock, perp 1 draws down on him.

The first perp had a pistol to my friend's head. The other two also hand handguns. My friend still drew his Glock in .357 Sig and basically emptied it into perp 1, reloaded and fired at perps 2 and 3. Detroit howled for months that "...the man over-killed the boy! He didn't have to over-kill him!"

Perhaps it's time the "Gun-Free Zone" laws apply to criminals, not law-abiding. You are correct, Detroit is said to be getting better...but it isn't. In closing, I'm glad your friend is uninjured. Now he needs to take some courses and develop better situational awareness.

Geno

 

[jpwilly]

Situational awareness and the guts to tell yourself you're not just being paranoid are vital. Most people want to hope and play the odds in these situations. They hope it won't happen to them and they rationalize it by saying "odds are it won't". PS your odds in most cities are 5%+- in 100. I'd play the lottery more often if those were my odds.

Here's some stats on Detroit http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Detroit&state=MI

Here's some on Phoenix http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Phoenix&state=AZ

Just a couple of years ago I was approached in a parking lot by two males (appeared to be undocumented persons from just south of the border). I noticed them loitering over by a Dominoes Pizza nearby on the way in to pick up some food just a few store fronts down. Coming back out to my car I was aware of them they were just standing backs against the wall on the walkway. I had parked in the first row and I had already unlocked my car doors take out in hand. Once I turned my back to walk between my car and the next I saw one very quickly moving to circle around behind my car and the other one started straight at me asking for money jabbering on in Spanish and gesturing with both hands to get my attention he was moving toward me and would be in "my personal space". I moved real quick opened my door to separate us. I held the door with my foot turned and yelled "Back Off" to the man behind my car. I couldn't see his hands both were down at his sides. My hand had already gone to my waistband with a firm grip on a loaded PT145 Mil Pro both men backed off off. I believe they were working as a team. If I wasn't already in condition yellow when I arrived and just blew off these guys off (very common out here to see) things could have been much worse.

 

[david_the_greek]

As a fellow Detroiter I know your pain. Doesn't matter if you're in midtown or downtown (or the worse neighborhoods for that matter), there is crime everywhere. Robberies seem to be going up in the midtown area like crazy. I luckily have never had to draw on anyone before, but there have been a few situations where I noticed 1-4 individuals clearly speed up and come towards me on empty or quite streets. 4 young men, no matter what their race or where you happen to be, are a dangerous thing.

Typically what I've done is make eye contact and jab my hand down into my coat pocket and hold carry piece with my finger clearly rigid along the trigger guard and my elbow out to the side like I am ready to draw. This has always resulted in the group and/or individual turning around promptly. Also, throwing my hand to 4:00 under my jacket has worked. That one saved me on my bike from a group of guys who came out from the abandoned brewster projects just outside the eastern market. I commuted on my bike all last year and after cutting through the eastern market I was riding and a group of guys decided to get up and walk into the middle of the road as I was approaching. I slowed slightly to gain my balance and reached to the back of my waistband, they backed off the road and I sped the heck up!

Being a student I have to stash my carry piece in my vehicle when I drive or simply not carry when I ride one of my bikes or motorcycle to school. I've had a group of highschool aged kids (I'm assuming) see me walking alone to my car (about 6 blocks, too cheap to pay for parking...) and follow me. I luckily noticed them and watched as they went from 1 block away to 1/2 block away to 40 ft to closer, all in a VERY short period of time. They were obviously trying to catch me. I kept speeding up and finally just rushed into a local store (avalon bakery for all you detroiters). They were literally just about on me as I rushed and opened the door. I sat in the bakery (full of people thank goodness) and watched them outside waiting, one of them came in and looked around for "something" (me) but didn't see me as I worked there at the time and was behind the counter where we knead the bread and such. Imagine the thought of defending yourself against a group of kids? Makes me sick to think I have to hurt a kid or potentially get my life taken from me. This was about a week and a half after some 15 yr old and accomplice attacked and pushed an old woman down near the medical center and stole her purse. Sad world.

I guess my long winded reply was mostly to bitch and vent. I've never had to draw my piece in self defense, I really hope i never do. My actions have stopped me from potentially getting hurt, though I'm sure to others they seem stupid. I did after all throw my cards on the table, but thus far at least it's worked. The time on my bike I was bluffing (no pistol, riding to class) and just got gosh darn lucky that they didn't call it. I hope your buddy isn't too shaken up. If you ever want to grab a drink with a fellow THR'er to perhaps show your buddy that us cpl holders aren't all nuts, let me know! Beer bars are one of the few things we really got going in this area...

 

[JoeSlomo]

1.) So we are all supposed to be in condition yellow...

Situational awareness. (common theme in this thread, as it should be).
Look for visual cues, identify behavioral cues, avoid when possible. Most of the time you can get a pretty good read on people by looking them in the eyes, and that, combined with body language, is a good indicator of threatening behavior.

2.) As someone who lives in Detroit...

I will NOT live in "the ghetto", and when I say "the ghetto", I mean ANY high crime area. Period. I try to avoid those areas as much as possible, and they don't have anything to offer me anyway. When a baddie has a gun pointed at you, you've got to think about the odds, and what type of counter you can succeed with. It takes about 1/4 of a second for the average sober individual with intent to react and pull a trigger, it takes the average individual more than a full second to draw and fire, let alone from concealment. Sometimes the odds favor waiting and letting the situation develop. Sometimes not.

3.) Would you do anything different if you were with your girlfriend/wife/kids?

Absolutely. I wouldn't go shopping in the ghetto, and I would be more inclined to act on avoidance of potential threats I identify while I maintained my awareness.

5.) The argument "man up or dont carry" doesnt fly with me...

Sometimes the baddy may get the drop on you, and there isn't a whole lot you can do. You win by giving you and yours the chance to see another day. Anything else is a bonus.

 

[fiddleharp]

Gee, how did the thriving, vibrant cities our ancestors built turn into such hellholes in the first place?
Never mind. Most of you aren't ready to face the answer head-on. Yet.

 

[Cosmoline]

Let them get into the car, then shoot them both.

Mind, in Detroit that's almost certain to get you prosecuted in front of a highly bigoted jury. But you roll the dice either way. Nothing keeps Mr. Shotgun from blowing you in half on his way out. You're not out of imminent danger until you're out of his range. If you see an opportunity to defend yourself before that time, take it.

Of course that also assumes you're packing, which is illegal over there and again going to get you arrested.

Detroit's idiotic political and social morass aside, it's well to remember this sort of thing can happen anywhere, and the nogoodnicks can be of any color. They will tend to be young males, though. So anytime you see a group of such people and they're looking like trouble be alert. If something feels wrong it probably is.

 

[BBA]

Did the pd actually show up? I know they'll show sometime within the next 24hrs. Most times they just tell you to stop in and file a report. I have an uncle that was a Detective that quit when Coleman Young was hiring the thugs he was arresting.
Sorry for your friend, he was behind the 8ball when he pulled in and having pulled a gun in that spot would not be to his advantage. Live to fight another day and don't move to Flint.

 

[lexjj]

I doubt I would have done it, but part of me really wonders what would have happened if he had just thrown the keys in the trunk and then shut it. "Its all yours."

I was at a gas station once and saw three very large men (ages 18-22) start approaching me. They did not look friendly. Chests were puffed out, and they were glaring right at me. I do not carry a gun. So, I slightly pulled up my shirt in the back some, bladed my body, and grabbed my belt with my right hand, as if I was grabbing the handle of my pistol. They all three immediately turned around. I was surprised how well my goofy maneuver worked.

 

[Cosmoline]

lex--you need to be really careful about that as I'm sure you know. Some times they'll call your bluff or it will spur them to draw their actual firearms. And you're left holding air.

Though it's not considered PC by most, in the dicey encounters I've had over the years one method of carry has proven itself to be vastly superior to the others--holsterless pocket carry. I realize it's a dangerous practice to finger loaded revolvers in one's pocket, but I have to admit it's been very nice to know if the jokers try anything I'm not going to have to fuss around trying to find my firearm. The times I've been dealing with loons and I haven't had a revolver in my pocket hand, I've felt the lack of it. Thankfully nothing has ever happened and I'm a proud coward about avoiding trouble, but it's an interesting lesson.

 

[lexjj]

Yeah I know. I was actually counting on it.

I wanted to force their hands. They were still 30 or so feet away. If they were going to draw I would have much rather it been from 30 or so feet away where I still have cover/concealment in my vehicle and the surrounding gas pump structures. I also still had an escape route. I wouldn't have done it if they close to me. Also, I was guessing they weren't armed with a firearm. They were relying on size, numbers, and darkness. I certainly could have been wrong, but there were no clues to lead me to believe they had guns. No cover garment, no holding an arm near to the body, no hand on anything, no bulges, no strange gate. They were only threatening to the extent that they were trying to LOOK threatening. At 2 in the morning in a gas station where its obvious they didn't drive to (no other cars), I was inclined to believe they weren't three long lost friends.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

In the situation in which he found himself, he probably did the best thing -- after all, he survived.

The question is, how could he have kept from getting in that situation?

1. Go armed.

2. Be suspicious -- beyond Condition Yellow.

3. Don't encumber yourself -- instead of carrying groceries, use a cart. Push it to your car. You can easily draw while pushing a cart.

4. Keep away from suspicious people. Keep something -- the cart, your car, or whatever between you and them.

5. Don't be embarrassed to turn around and head back into the store if you see suspicious characters in the parking lot.

6. A cell phone is as important as a gun -- once you have a barrier between you and them or have turned back, use the cell phone. The first guy to dial 911 in a situation like this is usually the one the police will consider the Good Guy.

 

[skoro]

I appreciate your thoughts

Simple...

Don't go to a grocery store in a suspect neighborhood at night. What was so important that it couldn't have waited until the next morning? Now, your pal is without his car as well as the groceries.

Both of my brothers are cops. They've told me numerous times how parking lots (particularly at night) are hunting grounds for predators. They especially target women who are slow to get out or get into their vehicles or guys who have both hands occupied.

 

[ClayInTX]

What he should have done and what he should have been watching and why he shouldn’t have been there at that time is now irrelevant to the then and there.

Your friend exercised his only option.