True stories instead of What ifs?

[El Bucho]

Been reading a lot of "What ifs?" and was wondering if some people out there would share some more of the "Check this out" stuff. Anybody actually fired in self defense? I have a friend who has. Posted this on another thread...

Have a friend that had this happen to him, same sort of scenario with a far different turn out...
Comes out of his office to find this guy pissing on his car. Says to the guy, what the &%$# do you think you are doing. The man then turns to him opening his coat and revealing a sawed off shotgun and says, "Do you want some of this?" Seeing the shotgun, he reaches into his truck, pulls out a 9mm, tells him "Damn right I do," and puts a cluster of at least 4 rounds into the guys chest. Would have been more but he said the gun jammed up on him. Somehow the guy ends up living and it took over a year for him to get cleared of the incident. What makes it really screwed up about taking it so long to get cleared was that the guy with the shotgun had just shot and killed someboy in an armed robbery.

Not really looking for bragging stuff as much as just situations we can all learn from. Thanks in advance.

EB

 

[P95Carry]

No anecdotes to contribute ..... but ...... sure would be interested to know what 9mm it was .... that jammed up?? Any more info on that?

 

[El Bucho]

Not sure exactly what it was other than a "POS that was dropped by a vietnamiese soldier in the 60's"

 

[ACP]

Let me get this straight....

Friend confronts a man urinating by his vehicle. Man shows shotgun. Friend doesn't run screaming for PD. Instead, he gets into his vehicle -- what is the shotgun doing at this moment? -- retrieves a handgun -- what is the shotgun doing at this moment? -- says herocially "Damn right I do" -- what is the shotgun doing at this moment? -- fires four rounds COM -- what is the shotgun doing at this moment? -- until his gun jams -- what is the shotgun doing at this moment? -- and the perp lives.

What did the police and court reports say about the incident?

Sounds like the friend could have handled the matter a LOT better.

 

[Billy Sparks]

ACP, my thinking exactly. El Bucho, your friend is lucky he A) didn't get shot, B) didn't get sued, or C) go to jail.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

El Bucho's friend's story sounds quite a bit inflated. Anytime the hero of the story willingly accepts a challenge from superior fire with a self righteous attitidue ("Do you want some of this?" Seeing the shotgun, he reaches into his truck, pulls out a 9mm, tells him "Damn right I do,"), you gotta figure he had altered the story to make himself look a whole lot better.

 

[Soap]

What ACP said. If you want real stories read up on Jim Cirillo or get Massad Ayoob's true stories book.

 

[Sven]

Hrm.

 

[Denny Hansen]

Good job, ACP.

El Bucho-
The reason most people ask "what-ifs" is because, thank God, Allah, Odin or whatever else is your choice, is that they have never been in a deadly-force situation. FWIW, I'll take a hundred "what-ifs" with well thought out answers over a "true" incident that used questionable tactics any day.

Denny

 

[El Bucho]

I can't argue with any of you guys, not trying to defend what my friend did. Definitely think it could have been handled in a different if not better manner, but then again, I wasn't there. I do know that they guy not only showed him the shotgun but also was obvious about his intent to use it. He was standing at the door of his truck with the pistol within reach, so it's not like he walked across the parking lot to get it and come back to let the guy have it.

I too would rather have a thousand "what if's" instead of one "this is what happened..."

That was just the way he had told me the story so I'm sure like any story it is embellished somewhat.

The one thing about the all this that I am really wondering about is when exactly is the use of deadly force acceptable? What has to happen in order to cross that line? It seems like if you had to "return fire" it could be too late for you, however with the legal system the way it is, it seems like you must already be under fire, hit a couple of times, see the light at the end of the tunnel and then only maybe, if it happens on a Wednesday afternoon between the hours of 3 and 3:30 etc...

I realize that every situation is going to be different adn there can really be no hard and fast rule. Just trying to spark up conversation because I'm bored off my a$$! Y'all have a great day.

 

[Correia]

El Bucho, valid question.

Legally speaking lethal force is justified only in certain cases.

Do you feel threatened? Do you feel your life, or the life of one of your loved ones is in danger? The legal question usually posed is did you do what a "reasonable" person would have done.

Does the threat have the means to hurt you? If you shoot somebody 100 yards away with a knife you will probably go to jail. If you shoot the same knifeman 10 yards away it would be justified.

The threat has to have the means and the opportunity to hurt you. Now you local laws may vary greatly. Some states are more lenient about self defense than others. Many states have a Castle Doctrine, wherein your home is your castle. If a bad guy has entered your home, then you can go under the reasonable assumption that they are there to hurt you, and they wouldn't be there if they didn't have the ability and means to do so.

I recommend learning what your local state laws are concerning self defense. Things that would get a medal pinned on you in Utah will get you thrown in prison in Washington DC.

Problem with the story you related is that it doesn't jive with what many of us here know about actual shootings. It may be true, and I'm not trying to call your story into question. But if it did happen exactly as you described, then it is a very odd case indeed.

 

[themic]

one common standard is that the attacker must

1) have the ability to do you great harm
2) have the opportunity to do you great harm
3) have the intent to do you great harm

in many states it also applies to your immediate family (i.e. have the ability, opportunity, and intent to do you or your immediate family great harm)

but it should be written in your state's criminal code, and should be discussed in a CCW class.

note that the attacker does not have to be already shooting at you.

 

[themic]

the situation initially discussed
the person with the shotgun had the ability obviously
but opportunity and intent are not as obvious
and actually arguable if the dude didn't reach to take out the firearm, but merely alluded to it or allowed it to be seen
probably why your friend had a tough time but eventually got acquitted

(a make-my-day demeanor may not have helped him much either)

also many states require you to take an opportunity to leave the situation if that is possible. sounds like this was your friend's real problem... it sounds at first as if this opportunity was available to him and he didn't take it.

 

[CWL]

Might I also input that the only pistols used by the NVA (not Viet Cong) were Tokarevs (7.62) and Makarovs (9x19) -both of which were pretty good pistols. As often discussed, the Makarov's round is not the same as what's commonly described as a "9mm" (parabellum).

Plenty of 9mms available in SE Asian nowadays, but these were intruduced in the 1980's and are mainly S&W, Glocks and Berettas.